In this episode Bermet Suiutbekova joins us in talking about the idea of creating a home where pain is turned into a game, ideas are raised and reshaped, and social impact is made on a global scale.
Guest: Bermet Suiutbekova, Instructor, Social Entrepreneurship and Design Thinking, American University of Central Asia (AUCA) [@MyAUCA]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/bermet-suiutbekova/
Hosts:
Alejandro Juárez Crawford
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford
Miriam Plavin-Masterman
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
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Episode Introduction
In this episode Bermet Suiutbekova joins us in talking about the idea of creating a home where pain is turned into a game, ideas are raised and reshaped, and social impact is made on a global scale.
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Resources
Who Gets to Shape the Future? | Alejandro Crawford: https://youtu.be/p4HV9Nxsb60?si=ztUfFQ2cOVOLeduW
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For more podcast stories from What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman, visit: https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford and https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
Who Gets to Have a Voice? Building Connected Spaces Where Local Problem Solvers Build Globally Needed Solutions | A Conversation with Bermet Suiutbekova | What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:00)
I think changing user experience is one of the strange, extremely vexing, but you also know it's the kind of thing you probably shouldn't complain about too much, problems of our time, right? There is nothing that makes a person angrier than when Google doesn't work. And yet at the same time we know, really, it's not the end of the world, right? I'm particularly fascinated when a software update happens and suddenly,
My whole user experience has been changed to something where I am supposed to just figure out where everything is. Somehow menus are out of fashion. I don't know, ma 'am, what's your experience been with this?
Mim Plavin-Masterman (00:38)
I would say surprisingly similar. When I'm trying to do something and I go right to the, how do I do this thing on my phone or my computer? Inevitably it takes me to somebody's how -to list, except all the names are different. Now it's not the settings menu, it's the preferences menu, or it's here, it's there. And part of me is like, they're just messing with us, right? Like, like.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:58)
Yeah. Yeah, they're messing with you. Yeah, and that's actually what we do, you know, in my software hat. We're like, let's mess with the users. No, I think we're actually trying to make it better. The thing is that I'm sure they've done all kinds of user research, but before we get into that sort of thing, we have an incredible guest today whom we're going to announce in just a moment who actually is a leader in design thinking, but design thinking as it applies to
Bermet Suiut (01:07)
you
Mim Plavin-Masterman (01:24)
you
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (01:28)
to making our world a world that makes sense to live in. And we can get into some of these more trivial experiences when, you know, your Tesla changes the interface just while you're trying to do a car chase or something like that. But I have a feeling we're going to talk with her about some of the really important and urgent uses of that thinking around the world.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (01:56)
us from Bishkek City.
in Kyrgyzstan very, very, very late at night. And she has an unbelievable good sport for staying up in the middle of the night to speak with us. But she's here today to talk about her amazing work, working for the American University in Central Asia, coordinating their social entrepreneurship program, sustainability, design thinking. She also has done a lot of work in the Global Certificate in Sustainability and Global Enterprise as one of their coordinators. So she's got a ton of great ideas all around user experience, what it means, why it matters so much.
Bermet Suiut (02:10)
you
Mim Plavin-Masterman (02:27)
how we make sense of all these things around us. So thank you for joining us today.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:29)
you
Bermet Suiut (02:31)
Thank you for having me today. Me me melehandro, thank you.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:36)
Mim, of course, is making the assumption, and this is not a safe assumption anymore, Mim, that Bermette is not a cyborg and needs to sleep. So we'll get into that in the interview. I'm Alejandro Juarez -Croffert, and this is my co -host, Mim Plavin -Masterman. And we're on a mission to make experiments of your own feel as normal as watching videos on your phone. Welcome to What If Instead, the podcast.
Bermet Suiut (02:44)
you
me.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (03:05)
But I wanted to
this, before we
with the people that you're here to serve. And I wanted to ask you, when you are enabling people to ask our question, what if instead, and respond with experience of our own, in some way that they haven't been able to, what's blocking them? What are you doing
it? And if you could look back five years from now and say you made a shift, what would that
Bermet Suiut (03:30)
my students they came
detective, right? Be detective.
Be curious, ask questions. When you ask more questions, then you will learn more. And when you learn more, you will get actually more understanding. And then when you get the more understanding, then you may find your solution. And the most recent for me, the brightest was actually when I was teaching social entrepreneurship last spring, of course, I had a group of students that they were like,
We required a student and they said, oh, I want to actually create a co -friendly sustainable furnitures. I was like, what do you mean? Oh, you know, professor, that actually a lot of ways how you can make the furnitures more durable, fire resistant, water resistant. I was like, what is that? Oh, it's a mushroom. I was like, wow. And then we worked on that and...
students were able to create the prototype. So the challenge was that we couldn't, we didn't have back then a lab where we could actually dry it properly. Although we tried different, actually we tried to reach out to different laboratories, but the heating, the drying was not suitable for the miscellaneous. And students,
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (04:44)
Mm -hmm.
I gotta say, fungus furniture sounds really comfortable, Bermette. Like, I have this image of the soft, sort of wrinkly part of a mushroom, and just kind of gigantic one, right? And, you know, I've been wondering.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (05:01)
It does.
Okay, so one thing before we get back to this, so you're going with the like sweet side of mushrooms, I'm going with like the last of us that are going to eat us. Like, so, so what is this now? Yeah, sorry, back to your, yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (05:18)
hahahaha
But no, but all fun with mushrooms aside, you gotta have fun with mushrooms, it sounds like part of the challenge, you gave us this wonderful sequence where you said, we need to innovate the delivery of education. And then you gave us these four things. Go out, be curious, be a detective, ask the questions, right? Which is, which, and then you gave this example of the students working with the mycelium and needing to find access to a lab where they could make their crazy idea of, you know,
Bermet Suiut (05:25)
I'm sorry.
Yes.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (05:54)
mushrooms, furniture, durable mushroom furniture, feasible and possible. So can you actually give us a little bit of detail? Talk to us about, you know, we were getting out of the mud, we're working on mushrooms, but we got to go out, be curious, be a detective, and ask the questions. Tell us a story.
Bermet Suiut (06:15)
Ask a question. We're out.
along with all my peers from the global class, we use the platform which actually guides students and they come in and they publish their old work and it's get all their work gets grilled by their other peers globally, not by their actually classmates like within the local co -
local cohorts. And that actually was also that is actually one of the greatest tools and one of the methodologies where we all use globally to really review and follow the students process, how they are doing, what they're doing in terms of their project success. So we what Alejandro said, they are out of mud and they're already prototyping or they already
testing maybe, prototyped in their testing. And then they also, oh no, I need to also say, talk about the markets research, right? Because without the market research, there is no great or good, not great, but good business idea that could actually be born.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (07:17)
Mm -hmm.
So these are these questions you're talking about asking whether it's can I work with a lab to make the mycelium work or is there a market for this? Now I got to say this sounds really far out what you're describing and I'm wondering if you could paint the picture for listeners that may not know what it means to have all these groups around the world together working on something like this or who may not know what you're talking about when you talk about being grilled globally.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (07:35)
Nice.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (08:02)
What does that mean to someone who's not familiar to any of this, Bermed? And how does it help folks ask those questions?
Bermet Suiut (08:10)
So for us, for us, like for us, I mean, where this is actually, I think in my opinion, very innovative way of delivering the education globally where more than actually five institutions around the world, starting from actually Myanmar last year, we had students from Myanmar. Yes. We also had students from Taiwan and of course, Kyrgyz Republic.
Then we go all the way to, no, not all the way, so very close, Bangladesh, then Bulgaria, then Palestine. And then last semester we had also Ghana and South Africa. And the year previous we had students from Columbia, Columbia University, I cannot, I forgot the country Columbia, and obviously Bars. So altogether, and also Belarusia, sorry, I forgot the Belarusian ones, yeah.
We all come together as different students with a different backgrounds. They come in and they say, you know what? I think we all like only, for example, Kyrgyz Republic has a problem with education. And when we come in all is like, uh -oh, like they have actually the same problem. Oh, I thought only Kyrgyz Republic because we are developing third world country, but America also has a problem or Belarussia has the same problem.
So they come in all together and students can also work together, depending on, not depending, I mean, it doesn't really matter if you are from Kyrgyz Republic, from South Africa and America, but you have actually the same burning situation. You can group team up and then develop the project, whether like you are in an article somewhere.
And because you have actually the same pain that you are trying to solve and find the cure together. And what I mean by grilling is every week we actually meet once in a week and we invite students to pitch. So this is more of like a practice, right? It's not a real pitching. So.
like steadily, we don't actually scare them, like say, now you have to pitch, no. Every week students come in with their raw presentations, raw data, and then we give them five minutes, right after five minutes we cut them off, and then there are questions students ask. Most of the time we encourage students to engage because this is where we're also developing their...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (10:32)
Thank you.
Bermet Suiut (10:46)
critical thinking and analytical thinking skills, which are essential currently right now in the developing AI world. And we call it actually, should I tell the new term fishbowl? Okay, am I actually fishbowl? Like fishbowl, that's where actually we call it. And obviously then we send our students because come on, like five institutions, we have more than 100 students.
which actually means sometimes we can get actually 40 projects maximum, right? Maximum. And we break them into breakout rooms and each core facilitators are sent to those breakout rooms and each team actually, team groups, they have time to present. And we always ask them to grill them, the fish bowl them, right? Bowl them and use that.
Platform called rebel base where they can leave all their come all their feedback or questions So students do not forget what was the question and based on those question on the feedback students go back and do it again thorough research or Improve their presentation or really reanalyze what they have collected through before a bit class?
Mim Plavin-Masterman (12:03)
This is fascinating because I'm thinking about as you're, when we started the conversation, you were talking about the empathy you have for people to sort of get them out of the mud. And on one level, when you think, okay, you're going to be grilled in a fishbowl, it doesn't sound very empathetic, right? But I think the outcome, it does sound scary. It sounds intimidating. It sounds almost like a gladiator arena. But then it sounds like the process is somewhat transformative where the students actually are developing empathy through this. So how
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (12:19)
Sounds scary.
Hm.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (12:32)
How do you get them to come away from what could be a really scary experience with something so positive as empathy for someone else's situation?
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (12:38)
Hmm.
Bermet Suiut (12:42)
In the past, they were actually students saying, you know what, professor, I don't want to present. I don't want to pitch. I am scared. I am shy. I get fear. I get anxiety. But once we finished the class, they were like, can we actually like, I miss the class. I actually miss being fishbowled because those fishbowls actually reshaped me within the actual four or five months. Even let's say four months, four months, even three months reshaped my thinking and.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (12:57)
I'm sorry.
Bermet Suiut (13:13)
Yes, at the beginning it sounds so brutal. Like, yes, like you are talking in front of 100 people that you don't know. And now you get to actually. But I always say, this is a life. Like you won't be always saved. You need to actually get toughened. You need empathy is the way how you actually provide the feedback. Are you providing the feedback to make them feel good? Like saying, good job, good job.
or you are actually providing them a feedback, emphasizing that you want them to be better. I think the second option is better.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (13:51)
Yeah. You make me think of Sebastian Kroll, who leads this work in Bangladesh, has talked about how when he first was working on SoulShare, his social venture, a bunch of people said, this is the best thing in the world. I love it. And he never worked with them again. But it was those who said, there are so many things that aren't going to work here. Here are all the problems that he works with.
this day. But I think you're bringing up something really interesting in terms of how we're taught to think when you use grilled globally and ineffishable or empathy. And I remember being a young person myself and a poet named A .R. Ammons was teaching at Cornell and he said to us, he said, judge the poem in terms of what it's trying to become.
I'll never forget those few words because it changed the idea for me. It said, wait a minute, criticism of the first version of something might actually be helping it with what it's trying to become. And as you spoke, Bermette, you really struck me as you described this process of going out into the field, getting grilled globally, critical and analytical thinking, going into the fishbowl, that may be what you're describing.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (14:54)
you
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (15:22)
Isn't this terrifying experience of being a goldfish in a bowl because of what that experience is giving us in terms of discovering our powers? That's where you're leading me as you speak. Is that on the right track?
Bermet Suiut (15:39)
Yeah, I think also I want to add one more things like you need to understand what's at stake, right? It is not the credits what you are receiving. It is actually the experience that you are receiving and how far you can go with that experience. So in my classes, it's more of like 80%, not 80, 90 % of practice, right? And 10 % of the theory because you learn better while doing.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (15:43)
you
Mim Plavin-Masterman (15:52)
you
Bermet Suiut (16:05)
So I wanted to add that there is actually a stake, which is like by your work you could actually make huge, like the scale of the impact is huge. So.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (16:17)
So can I ask one thing to follow up on that is as I'm listening to you talk, I mean what you're doing is so transformative and important. How did you learn to do that? Was there something specific that happened to you? Was it sort of the sum total of a whole life of experiences? Like could you speak to how you've developed? It's a very unusual mindset. I mean that is a compliment. So I'm just very curious how you kind of got to think that way.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (16:18)
Hmm.
How did you become Bermetsu? That's what we need to know.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (16:49)
Yeah, I guess that's my question, but in one... Thank you.
Bermet Suiut (16:55)
I say my family at the global class. The global class where we teach all my peers. We are sitting in our own offices, comfortable chair or during sipping water, right? And how they make me feel. So how we actually, when we meet and we chat with all the faculties or facilitators,
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (17:18)
OIK!
Bermet Suiut (17:26)
And you listen right you listen what they're saying you listen to what other like students are saying what they're sharing and Then it becomes actually like, you know, their dimension of thinking. I don't know I think I think I even myself confused with the answer right now
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (17:45)
But it's very striking what you're saying when you describe a global family. We're living in this time when so much of our time is on Zoom, even with people that may live in the same city as we do. And the last thing I typically get out of a video conference session, not this one, obviously, but is a feeling of family. Right? I traditionally would get a feeling of family from other things, maybe enjoying music or breaking bread.
So I really want you to break down for us, because it's really a little bit shocking what you've described. Why do you see that global group of people as a family? What does that mean to you?
Bermet Suiut (18:30)
One thing unites us all, our passion to teach, our passion to show the way to students, even with our different demographics, like age, race, right? Sex, everything. And our passion is one, our value is one. And we have all the same empathy towards actually really teaching this future generation to be more sustainable and preserve the nature for our kids, our next generation.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (18:42)
Mmm.
Hmm. But -
Yeah. Break it down for listeners, though. So there's a shared passion, as you put it so beautifully, for preserving nature for another generation, right? And actually, the evidence suggests that majorities of young people around the world recognize that as their number one concern, right? And yet, so often, we feel as if we're in this disconnected and atomized world, where we feel separated from that sense of family,
and the agency that comes with it. So I want to know from you, Brmet, what's different here? Why? Give us really breakdown in as anecdotal a way as you can. Give an example, if you can think of one. Why do you feel as if you're in a family with people in all of these far -flung places you've listed from Colombia to Bangladesh?
Bermet Suiut (19:53)
I think you can see it even from my face that whenever I think about the social entrepreneurship peers, right? It brings me a lot of joy and happiness because last year we actually had the privilege of meeting in Sofia, Bulgaria, where we discussed the future of this global certificate. And that was actually for the first time we met, okay?
And the fun part was that we've known and we've taught this course for like two years and that was our first time meeting in person. And we shared breaths, why? We had actually a lot of fun together. And what I like actually have been...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (20:40)
I noticed we were drinking water before during class, now we're drinking wine, is that right? Go on, excuse me.
Bermet Suiut (20:47)
No miraculously the water and Sophia turned into wine That was actually a lot of experience and the diversity the background is also different right so They
When we've met, it was felt like we didn't have that subordinate, subordinate, right?
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (21:17)
Like a sense of hierarchy and who was subordinate to whom.
Bermet Suiut (21:18)
It's like, yes, yes. So it's like, yeah. And that made me also appreciate that regardless of like what title you have in what status you are in, we were all greeted. I would say first of all, the way how the leader of the program treats you and the rest actually will catch it on. It's like a virus, right? So if the...
leader of the program as very open -minded and trying to create a psychologically safe, meaningful availability, right? And that workplace, that means you are engaged, that means you are dedicated, and that means also you are loyal to the program. And then when you are loyal, you are loyal only to your family and sometimes friends.
So if I have been with this certificate for the third year and I am planning to continue to teach and engage with the Global Certificate Program, that actually means it's actually a family.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (22:31)
You know, ma 'am, I'm sure you have a million questions. If I could just ask you, Bermette, to help our listeners understand two things about what you've just described. First of all, you just talked about a psychologically safe global grilling and this warm feelings about all these fishbowls. So I'm trying to understand that because many of us are afraid of being criticized and being...
put out there in the way that you've described during this podcast. The other thing, so I want to know what sets that. And then you described, think of people around the world who, I had a student recently say to me that what was horrible about being in school during COVID was that the professors didn't know his name, right? And I've had others talk about how disconnected,
Bermet Suiut (23:10)
Thank you.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (23:30)
they've become over the last few years in this decade. So if you could, and this is very hard what I'm asking, but for those of us who may be feeling as if we can't connect in education, in collaboration, or even with like -minded people who care about the environment or other pressing problems, what have you figured out with this group about how to make this incredible family -like connection where no one's subordinate to no one else?
and where you describe it as a positive virus in a time where it seems like so many noxious things are contagious, physically and otherwise.
Bermet Suiut (24:11)
Yeah, psychological safety and empathy during the fish bowling. It's very like paradoxical phrase, right? Like psychological safety in the global fish bowling where right now you're presenting your project in front of the hundred people. Oh, wow, that's scary. But we must understand that the high pressure makes the diamonds. Okay.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (24:39)
you
Bermet Suiut (24:42)
And it actually depends on what kind of actually heat or gas or coal you're using to create that actually heat, right? Is it actually high quality or low quality? In this term, psychological safety could be, is it actually high quality? Do we have actually enough faculty members who are capable of right now, like current, like,
Mim Plavin-Masterman (24:54)
you
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (25:11)
Mm.
Bermet Suiut (25:12)
capable of providing a safe space for students to express themselves and be open for the feedback. Or are we using actually very cheap quality coal or whatsoever where we are saying, no, you're wrong. It's like, I think you are in a wrong direction. You need to go and find your out your way. I don't know. Are we saying, let's come in and we can figure out together.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (25:18)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Bermet Suiut (25:42)
Or you say, no, like, I don't know. I think you are doing something wrong yourself. Go figure it out. No. So that's what, and we all have in a global class, we global classroom, right? And with the global faculty, our main goal is to provide a safe zone and make ourselves psychologically, right? Available to them where they're having psychological meaningfulness of what they're doing.
So this is where the empathy comes in and this is where actually the how students finding means, right? To solving the social problem, pressing either ecologically, economically or equity wise, I don't know.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (26:28)
Fascinating. And how did you decide to put your life into this arena? Like, was it a specific educational experience you had, or was there something that caused you to say, I'm going to stop what I'm doing, and I'm going to go get training and come back and run this program and develop these skills?
Bermet Suiut (26:52)
Mim, I knew from the beginning that I want to be a teacher. From childhood, I even remember writing an essay that I want to become a teacher. Yes, but of course, life took me on in different directions and I came back to teaching. And I always ask myself, like...
Mim Plavin-Masterman (26:57)
Okay. Oh.
Bermet Suiut (27:15)
If something happens, would I quit teaching? Not the university, but would I quit teaching? It's like, no, I would never. Because if I can impact one person's life, I think, or two students' lives throughout my teaching, and that student can go and teach another two, that's actually four. So my impact would be actually higher and bigger. And I know that I am actually influencing positively a student's life.
That's actually what drives me because education must be actually available and education shouldn't be actually limited to those who are privileged or who have like just an access because just because have access.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (27:55)
you
Mim Plavin-Masterman (28:03)
Right, no that makes sense. That makes sense. I guess I had one follow -up question. I say this as, so I'm now a teacher, my mother is also a teacher. Do you have parents or is anybody in your family a teacher? Did it come out of nowhere or did you grow up seeing your parents do something similar?
Bermet Suiut (28:13)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
I would say like what America's was of the time like I was shocked when I was in America for the first time and I was like studying there that There was actually a lot of peace kids I mean the kids meaning they were like younger than me and They were actually telling and label on the labeling themselves saying first generation like, you know graduates like graduates from the university
And I couldn't get it. It's like, what do you mean? Like education like isn't, shouldn't be like available because in my country it's not really expensive to go to university. Like, what do you mean the bachelor's degree? And then I, I actually sat back and I was like, and really like try to understand is it actually me for first who actually received the master's degree from my mother's side and father's side abroad, like over the seas, right? And I was actually first generation.
And no, I didn't have anybody in my family who were like in academia.
No, so it actually sums up that I am the first one who graduated and who has so much passion in the education.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (29:32)
Wow, pause and think of that. There's one part of me that's parochial, you know, speaking as someone who grew up in the United States. You make me wish, better meant, that in the culture here, we were more focused on what we can learn from the rest of the world. Oh, well, in Kyrgyzstan, it's not that expensive to go to college. What could we learn from?
Is there something that we might take away instead of being so sort of focused on ourselves all the time? In that way, on our system of education, to take notes. And one of the striking things about what you've described throughout this podcast is that sense of a family in which no one's subordinate, that's global, where everyone's criticizing but learning from each other. Actually, a very...
I just, what you say to me and Mim, what you've described is such a
beacon for a radically different way of thinking where we are looking to each other not for a dominant paradigm but to learn from one another to solve problems that we haven't solved as human beings and in our specific communities and industries. You just really make me think betterment.
Bermet Suiut (31:18)
I'm glad that I actually made you think that Darth Vader couldn't do it and I was able to!
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (31:19)
I don't think that often. So it's a great experience. Like my head feels warm suddenly. I don't know. I'm just going to lift weights next or something. I don't I don't know. Do you think often, Mem? We should try this more, this thinking thing that Bermette's into. Critical thinking. What did I learn? I started thinking.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (31:27)
Oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh. Oh my god.
This thinking thing, I've heard good things about it, but...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (31:47)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (31:48)
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
Bermet Suiut (31:49)
You
Um, I don't know. Um.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (31:52)
I have a million questions, but I'm going you were about to say something I think I Bet you tell us tell us what Everyone so take a few minutes during this podcast. I'd like you all to think
Mim Plavin-Masterman (31:53)
You
Bermet Suiut (32:01)
No, no, um...
I don't have anything to say, no. I am still thinking.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (32:18)
for five minutes, we're all gonna think silently now for a little while. Magic conversations. Where I grew up, you don't pause, right? It's like the other person pauses for a nanosecond. Deborah Tannen has actually studied us, and that means that you're supposed to jump in. So thinking, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (32:34)
It's true, it's true, this is New York speaking style. You took a breath, it's now my turn. No, um, and I feel like I know you never really leave the New York speaking style, even though I've no longer lived in New York and I don't live there. I haven't lived there for years. I feel like that's.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (32:47)
You don't even breathe your breath, you talk along as I just did to you, right? Yeah, that's what Tannen says we do. But this actually brings up an incredible question, right? So you've talked about global family, global grilling, and yet all these people from, I think you mentioned five continents early in this podcast, right? No Antarctica people yet.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (32:51)
Yes, we're cooperatively overlapping or something like that, right?
Bermet Suiut (33:13)
Yes.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (33:15)
and I don't even think we have an Australian yet, but you mentioned these groups in distinct cultures and backgrounds, and I even got the idea that they're not all from some typical MBA program or anything like that, right? How do our distinct ways of communicating interplay successfully when something as simple as when we pause is different culture to culture? How is it working that these students are grilling each other?
when they have distinct attitudes toward being critical of authority, toward shame, toward when you speak and when you don't, toward how much expertise you need to have before you raise a question, blah, blah, blah. Can I get your insight on that? Because you've described this incredible thing, but how does it work?
Bermet Suiut (34:01)
Yeah, right now when you were actually laying out the question it actually came to my mind is like the multinational multicultural audience what that we have on within that hundred people right and of course for example like you speak in one language to
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (34:29)
Hmm.
Bermet Suiut (34:30)
languages, but I mean, most of the time when the creator is to think only in one language, whereas, for example, I have to think in three languages and other students also have to think in four languages, depending on what's their mother language is. If Africa, South Africa has a lot of languages, Ghana, I'm not sure, but so and very mindful about. And we also have, for example, if I am saying,
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (34:43)
Hmm.
Bermet Suiut (34:59)
Okay, this is actually the month of Ramadan. And I think through our like culture, we are also sharing the culture virtually, and also raising the awareness of the our own culture, our beliefs, where we respectfully express and support because so like we are family, right. And also, when it comes to explaining this stuff,
and going to market research. Right now I am teaching also one of the global certificate courses and we were behind. And then I had to share with the leaders saying, hey, listen, I know this is important, but you need to also understand that you give everything in English, that's it. And you expect us bring it in English. I have to go back and I have to translate into two languages.
And then I have to make shiftings from English to Russian from Russian to Kyrgyz and then I have to then collect the data and then translate it back So when I'm translating back, I need to be also very very mindful that I don't I'm not losing the meaning, right? so these are very essential and this also the one of the Awareness that we have right now right within the certificate programs and the respect
This is actually a professional platform, first of all. This is not actually your friendly gatherings where you're actually partying. Yes, we party, but party in our terms, family terms, right? Where we are elders, there is a respect, that is actually, you know, order, order in a sense, what's actually happening, and they must be actually mutual respect. If you want to be respected, please respect the rest of others, right?
Mim Plavin-Masterman (37:00)
So I was gonna ask, Alejandro talked a little bit about things like hierarchy and communication styles, but one thing that comes to mind for me is culturally, not all cultures are okay with getting criticized by a woman, for example, or taking feedback from someone who they don't perceive to be their equal. I'm not casting aspersions on any one culture, I'm just saying it's a thing that happens occasionally from time to time. And I guess I just wonder how you...
try to manage that across to your point, multiple languages, multiple time zones, multiple cultures with the goal of, okay, you've got to get out of that way of thinking. How this person is here to help you. Like, how do you get students to kind of buy into that way of thinking? That's awesome.
Bermet Suiut (37:45)
Yeah, ma 'am. I had to like I was trying to laugh because when you said like criticize, right? Our students are not scared of anybody first of all Now that is like they are very scared of sebastian grow our dear friends And we give extra credits if they actually get through him is grilling of course, that's all jokes apart is I um Because that's actually true like that's very true
Mim Plavin-Masterman (38:00)
I'm sorry.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (38:08)
Ha ha ha.
Bermet Suiut (38:15)
He actually asked very critical questions, which really pushes students to think further. And my students, I remember, he asked a couple of questions and my students went and changed entirely the project, the idea, because he actually pushed them think further. It is not like rotating, right? Going round and round, but he actually pulled out from the mud and said, why don't you do this? Or why don't you actually export?
and they actually change it.
into the table. And though the background, right, one thing I can say for sure is in our old cultures, in our old culture, that is actually respect to people, like to people who are has actually faculties, right, who are teaching because we are
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (38:51)
Mm.
Bermet Suiut (39:13)
and also we are family. And I think the way how our peers are.
students, right? If I'm not really happy with one of.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (39:31)
Okay.
Bermet Suiut (39:32)
Since I said that we are family and we say, okay, if you.
If you have actually questions about pitching or providing feedback, you can reach out to actually Thomas and we all share our expertise where we can come in, share our expertise and then live. So I was invited also to South African students to talk about platform, talk about also empathy. So, and this is how we're built. And I have never experienced actually the cultural
Mim Plavin-Masterman (40:00)
Okay.
Bermet Suiut (40:12)
not listening to women. I mean, yeah, I think, and I think we also have students that are open -minded and they are here to solve those inequalities in the gender.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (40:28)
I love that. I wish I could... No, I was gonna say that that is a powerful thing to have the students that are open -minded, but there's a little bit of a selection piece of you're getting students who are open -minded to come and to get pushed beyond their natural boundaries. Like the students who don't want to think differently aren't going to be involved in this anyway, probably.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (40:29)
So that's very powerful. Go ahead and mip.
Bermet Suiut (40:47)
That those are actually people what I call stuck in the mud and they're too comfortable in that much They're ready yes, then we They're ready. There is always a hand right that can help to pull them out from that month And I agree that actually can still people that think the same way
Mim Plavin-Masterman (40:55)
Thank you.
Right.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (41:12)
what I think you've given us this incredible nugget here though that it's it's the intention with which we approach a situation and if we go into it committed to listen committed to be respectful then maybe some of the biases that we all inevitably bring with us can be
that we can get through them with that intention. I listened to an interview early this morning with Arash Javanbhakt, who's written a book called Afraid, Understanding the Purpose of Fear and Harnessing the Power of Anxiety. It was an interview Shankar Varantham did with him. And he was talking about very intense fears, right? The fear of heights, which he himself suffered from, or...
fear you might have as a first responder after having been in fires or been exposed to gunshots or as a veteran, right? Or the fear of snakes or spiders. And he talked about how they've shown that when we have those fears, that the point is not to become fearless. He says fear is a needed part of our brains. And that
Overcoming those fears is not about suppressing or getting rid of them, and it's about looking at the fears and cognitively understanding what's in operation. And then it's about the experience of being exposed to the thing you're afraid of, and learning that it's not going to do what you are afraid it would do. Right? So thinking about it, the snake is not really poisonous.
and then experiencing it. Wow, I'm being interviewed or I'm giving an interview and I might feel afraid. I personally always feel afraid when being recorded or on stage and yet nothing terrible is happening. Actually, we're having this amazing discussion. So I mentioned that not to talk about fear. Thanks for letting me just give the background, but because maybe the same idea could apply to our biases and to your original question.
Maybe if I walk into a situation and I come from a patriarchal background, and maybe I'm used to what we like to call mansplaining, right? Maybe all the men in my family for generations have always dominated the conversation, and I'm tempted to do that and to unconsciously diminish the voices of women. Maybe if I become mindful of that and if my intention is different, then I can get through it rather than wishing I didn't have it.
Now the joke here is that I just spoke for a full three or four minutes, and so let's get the mansplaining done here. But it's really a question. What do you guys think?
Bermet Suiut (44:15)
Mim, I don't know, like I like Alejandro I grew up in.
actually dominated by males.
So I
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (44:58)
Who's surprised?
Bermet Suiut (45:02)
Since I grew up in this sexually female dominated house, I don't know. I cannot really speak to like patriarchy. I cannot really speak to those girls, like ladies, all my fellow actually female friends that grew up in a patriarchy where maybe she was only one daughter or whatsoever. But unfortunately I can't. I can't.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (45:26)
You know, I'm hearing an echo between I have your back in your home and respectfully express in support, which you talked about earlier. Mim, I think you were about to jump in though. What do you think?
Bermet Suiut (45:31)
My father, yeah.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (45:41)
So I think I've had a variety of experiences. I have an incredibly supportive family where there's not a patriarchy in that inner circle in the family, kind of like you're describing. But then I've moved through these very elite, very patriarchal spaces throughout my education, especially after high school. And so there is a way that you're always kind of at some remove. My husband has heard me tell this story multiple times, but I've been on panels with a bunch of other PhDs and they all get addressed as doctor so -and -so. And then the person's like, and we have MIM, and I'm like, really?
Bermet Suiut (46:01)
Oh.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (46:12)
really like, but you know, and I have to start being like, well actually it's doctor. And then I'm like, and here we are. Like, and I become that sort of stereotype of the academic, but I feel like, you know, there's this, in some ways I feel like I can get away with trying to claim that space because I'm very physically unintimidating, right? I'm small. And so I think they'd be like, oh, she can be, you know, sort of dramatic and loud and take up the space because she's not a big person. But.
But there's a way that I had to train myself to kind of overcome that and take up the space. Like, not just.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (46:43)
Is that a setup, ma 'am? As you experience that, so what struck me about it was the need, the fact that you're having to claim something that is assumed for others and you're having to work for something that they have. Is that, as you're experiencing it, is it on the one hand you're like, you know what, I know how to do that, I'm gonna do it. Or is it something where you're in a compromised position to have to work for something that others assume?
Mim Plavin-Masterman (46:51)
Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
I think it's a little bit of both, frankly. And I feel like I start off from this compromised position, but then I feel like the old New York training comes through and I'm like, oh no, you didn't. Like, oh no, you didn't. Like I, you know, like I claim it. So I, but I, but I, you know, I wish I didn't have to, I guess I get is the point. I wish it was just.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (47:11)
Mmm.
Hehehehehe
For people around the world who don't know the old New York training, what does that mean, man? You're carrying a switchblade like in the movies? What are we talking about here? Show it to us if you are. Yeah, go ahead.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (47:32)
Hahaha!
No, but I think, I have no switchblade. No, but in New York it's very much like you stand your ground. If somebody comes up to you and they try to get in your face, you're taught to kind of not back away and say, no, this is my space. Like I'm claiming it too and you can't just push me around. But there's this push for women to be nice, to be kind, to be gentle, at least in some of these spaces that we move through. And so claiming things is different.
Bermet Suiut (48:02)
I think here ma 'am I have to also add to it is like Our parents right? I mean your parents are older way older than my parents and you are actually Raised like you are girl. You have to act like a girl. You have to smile like a girl You have to you know have a lot
like a girl so like there are so many actually disciplines and rules on how to be a woman or lady lady okay but there are no actually rules for how to be a man and
So and I also see this in our my generation here and here in critical Republic said millennials because our generation was born raised during the USSR and most of the mothers set up set at home and they were actually raised like you need to be actually a good housewife. You need to know how to cook. You need to know how to clean and blah, blah, blah. And obviously my family, my mother will actually raise me the same way. That's why I was, by the way, I wasn't a lot of trouble.
My mom too. I'm still in trouble because I don't do all this stuff. It's like that is not what I want to do okay, and Yeah, that's when actually my mom my father comes in. It's like okay. You don't want to do it. Okay, you don't do it But in a workplace is totally different I agree with you on that to me. I mean it's totally different Maybe because I work and also gain me mainly female dominated environments
Yeah, I cannot, yeah, so I cannot really speak to that patriarchy thing.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (49:52)
But maybe you can make one final connection for us, unless you're about to interject, ma 'am, before we bring our conversation to a close. In this last bit, you both have made me think about what it means to have to claim your voice and your space, what it means for someone to...
sort of second shift duties to be imposed, which can add burden, all the household stuff you described, what it means for someone to have your back, what it means to be in a situation that is not dominated by all these things. And these are food for thought. But I wondered if you could relate it back to the excitement that I heard you use when you described Baramett.
that global family. Because to me there's a line that we want to draw as I've tried to listen between that atmosphere of mutual respect and support, that lack of subordination, that sense that we were all even comfortable criticizing each other and learning from each other. That's a very striking thing you described and I'm wondering if you can draw the connection between that.
And what we're talking about here in the end with these very ingrained, sometimes gender subordination that can get imposed on all of us.
Bermet Suiut (51:31)
Dear friend Sebastian
table and sharing the piece of bread right and And for the global class and family and really engaging with each other This is a home this is a home where
the ideas are born, like the problem, the pain is brought, turns into actually a game. And then ideas are actually then raised. And the ideas are actually reshaped. The ideas are actually taught. And as a simple, like when you grow up, you leave the house to actually explore the other parts of the world, right?
And then we actually let those students go out and conquer the world by solving the pressing issues in our world, in the world, in our community. Our end goal with this certificate program is make the social impact global scale, right? And...
Stick with the family and always have actually the house warm with the warm chocolate or tea, whatever you would like, you know, also with the fresh bread. Yes, it's 12 a .m. and I want to eat fresh bread.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (52:50)
Hmm.
We're gonna let you eat. I want to just repeat a couple of things you said there in closing for our listeners because they're so powerful. You said, create a home where we turn our pain into a game.
You then said, so that ideas are raised and reshaped. Create a homework and turn our pain into a game so ideas are raised and then reshaped. And what you've left me with here is an incredible insight, which is that these questions of who gets to have a voice and how we create such a home aren't just for the person that gets to feel.
as if their voice is heard and they get to participate, though that's important, but that even more, therefore the community, the industry and the world that needs what we might create, if we're able to gain that experience, get into and out of that mud and use our voices in the ways you've described. But, Armet, you've really given us a powerful set of ideas today. I'm so grateful to you.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (54:19)
Thank you so much for staying up late to talk with us.
Bermet Suiut (54:19)
Okay.
It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me guys
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (54:29)
Have a great night and enjoy that food.