In this new What if Instead? conversation, Tomás Mora Selva and Huang Wei-Jou share their insights on how non-formal education fosters creativity, collaboration, and personal growth.
Guests:
Tomás Mora Selva, Cofounder, Youth BCN and Youth HUB; Head of Experiential Learning, RebelBase; Cofounder, Democratizing Innovation Institute; and Board Member, I.D.E.A
Huang Wei-Jou, Student, Institute of Oceanography, National Taiwan University
Hosts:
Alejandro Juárez Crawford
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford
Miriam Plavin-Masterman
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
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Episode Introduction
Tomás Mora Selva and Huang Wei-Jou share their insights on how non-formal education fosters creativity, collaboration, and personal growth. Tomás and Wei-Jou’s discussion explores the dynamics of experiential learning, mentorship, and the impact of cultural differences in education.The guests highlight the importance of enabling students to take ownership of their learning and the transformative power of project-based experiences.
Join us and learn more about the challenges and rewards of working in diverse teams and the potential for scaling these educational approaches globally.
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Resources
Greenies: https://app.rebelbase.co/project/3611
Repurpose (BRACU): https://app.rebelbase.co/project/4371
Youth BCN: https://youthbcn.com/, https://www.instagram.com/youthbcn_official/?hl=es
Youth HUB: https://youthhubnet.com/
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Episode Sponsors
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👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/sponsor-the-itspmagazine-podcast-network
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For more podcast stories from What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman, visit: https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford and https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
Unlocking Potential Through Experiential Learning | A Conversation with Tomás Mora Selva & Huang Wei-Jou | What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:00)
What time is it? I can't even tell what time it is right now amongst the incredible guests that we have today. I think that, Wei Jou it is almost midnight for you. I think I usually see you round about midnight.
which is interesting. think of you as this incredibly energetic person, full of intellectual curiosity and ideas, but maybe during the day, you're just trying to this dull, flat affect of a human being and we're just getting night wager. I don't know. You tell me.
Wei Jou Huang (00:32)
Actually, I I have like two modes. In the very beginning of the day, I would be kind of peak of my energy and it would slow it down, like it's slowly getting down and towards the maybe having dinner, it would be a lower point. But when I think of I have something exciting to do at night and I would return back to the peak, energetic peak. So now I'm in the
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:41)
Huh?
So is.
Wei Jou Huang (01:00)
pick right now.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (01:02)
Now is that night excitement mode, like if you were some kind of a device where you had sort of low and high, right? And a switch is the night mode. just turned high back on, or is it like ultra mode? Do you have like old air conditioners, like an economy mode?
Wei Jou Huang (01:17)
I think I would try my best to be the ultra moid every time but someday I just couldn't because I'm like too tired and I lost all the energy at night but like fortunately this time I really energetic and really decided to be here although it's 10pm but...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (01:37)
So I only know you in ultra mode. This is way Wei Jou ultra. Very exciting to realize that we've been in ultra mode in our conversations. Tomas, you a three mode human being? How does your switch work?
Tomás Mora Selva (01:52)
Actually, I just have on and off, I think. Every time I'm on, I'm on all the way in. If I'm off, I'm off. So just simply a version.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:01)
There's a...
Tomas, we're learning that you have no setting between off.
Tomás Mora Selva (02:06)
No, I mean, I just have those two settings on and off.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:10)
It's not even high. It's just on. There's no speed. There's no speed dial.
Tomás Mora Selva (02:13)
Anytime it's
on, anytime it's on, high.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:16)
Mim, how many settings do you have?
Mim Plavin-Masterman (02:19)
I mean, probably three. I mean, there's off, right? There's just off. But then there's the regular on, and then there's the extra on, the ultra mode in front of my students. When I'm in the classroom, I like crank it to that. like, let's do this. And like, try to get them all excited and break through the mode of like, everybody's on their phones and doing their thing. But it comes at a cost, right? After I walk out of the classroom, I drive home in my car and I come home and I'm like, nobody talked to me for about an hour.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:21)
Three? Okay.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm
Hmm.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (02:49)
just,
I need to recharge my whole social battery because it's not my normal state to be sort of high activation like that. So everything's a trade off, right? My students get in some ways the best of me or the ultra version. And then everybody else has to wait for my battery to come back.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (03:08)
Mm-hmm. I relate
very strongly to that when in front of a room of students, for me, it's that you want to interact fully with every single individual. I, I try to be aware of, you know how you have eye contact with one person and when it, when it works, you often know something about them.
before they say it, or even if they don't say it by their eyes, right? Most obvious thing in the world. I try in a group to be having that interaction with a lot of people. And I find that it takes a lot out of me. It's very exciting. It's what I imagine an orchestral conductor must experience as they're, you know, pulling out a little more volume from...
the tympani or whatever, the big drums. But like you, Mem, afterwards, I can barely articulate a thought and there's a need to recharge.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (04:15)
true.
I come home and I'm like, don't give me a math problem. It's not a good idea. I don't think it will go well until after I like, you know, take a walk, clear my head. So
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (04:25)
So if we
give you a math problem now, that's fine, right? This is a special episode of What If Instead, where we do math live together.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (04:28)
It depends on the math problem. Yes. To our one listener who stayed with us for the math problem. No, sorry.
Wei Jou Huang (04:37)
do fluid
Mim Plavin-Masterman (04:37)
No.
Wei Jou Huang (04:38)
dynamic I mean at an expert in fluid dynamics.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (04:40)
It's not.
No,
yeah, no, this is not what our guests thought they were signing on for us to listen to Alejandro give me math problems now. But seriously, I wanted to introduce our guests and then we could get into the real exciting conversation, which is why they're here and joining us across countries and time zones. Okay, so I'm going to start with Tomas. He is an advocate for experiential hands on learning. He's an advocate for youth empowerment.
He's had about 20 years of experience in designing really innovative and exciting educational programs. And he specializes in what we would consider sort of non-formal education methods beyond just sort of the personal lecturing at the front of the classroom, just something way more hands-on. And he really wants to work on these learning experiences that encourage people to be creative, to work together, and then to do something to improve society.
And as part of this, in addition to all the educational piece, what he does, he's founded social ventures, including one where he is now in Barcelona, Spain called Youth BCN. And it's basically trying to help young people working with innovative programs,
they do around the youth is workshops, is training, is all this emphasis on ways to learn that are beyond what we have traditionally thought of as ways to learn with the goal of helping people give back to their communities, train people to think about how to solve problems in their communities. And then there's this last piece of it, which is my segue to our second guest.
is he's the current head of experiential learning at RebelBase, which is this online innovation platform that spans time zones, that spans countries, that encourages entrepreneurial thinking and problem solving in these really interesting collaborative environments. so Wei-Zhou Huang is a student at the Institute of Oceanography, National Taiwan University, and she specializes in ocean environmental studies. She's very passionate about nature and about how we preserve and protect and enhance nature.
but she's also a former student of Tomas. She's also been a TA. She's a former and current participant in some of the global entrepreneurship programs that Tomas has been involved in delivering and helping formulate. And she's also become a global mentor to groups in this entrepreneurship program. So they really span a whole variety of learning and teaching styles in a very hands-on, interesting way. So we're very grateful to have them both here with us today.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (07:04)
Maybe we could open with how your collaboration has evolved the two of you over time, both intentionally and naturally. So let me ask first, if you don't mind, Wait, Wei Jou, what was your first impression of Tomas Morra and what has changed? How has he surprised you? What didn't you expect?
Wei Jou Huang (07:29)
sound a little bit offensive, but my first impression is that because I'm not a native speaker of English, it's very difficult for me to understand the accents of Tomás. But from now on, for me, it's supernatural.
kind of like a chat with Tomas and I can understand everything what he's saying. But in the beginning, it took me a while to actually understand the thing like Tomas expressing. And I think in the beginning, I think it's... I soon realized it's not a normal choruses I can take.
my university just from the first single local class and I soon realized well it's it would be the difference because of Tomás I think yeah because the way he's acting is not as any professor in my school is like entirely different and he's really really believe in our potential and really really try to kind of unleash it and
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (08:16)
Mm.
Mm.
Huh.
Wei Jou Huang (08:38)
I really feel this kind of power. Yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (08:41)
So this is very interesting, this idea of unleashing. Yeah, can you give us
an example? what Tomas did to believe in your potential and unleash it as you
Wei Jou Huang (08:53)
I think Tomás is his kind of person that will make you believe you can actually do something. He just takes it really normal. I think he's not setting any limits for anyone. He just takes it very gently, a very normal way to say, okay, you can go first step, second step, third step, and just go on, go on, go on, go on.
And in the end, you can build it. It's, it's far beyond the courses. So it's just like, he didn't make everything as it is like a thing is possible to be built and to be solved, to be developed. And he's in this kind of way to support
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (09:24)
Hmm
This is an incredible idea that is bigger, much bigger than a course that you're describing. If I'm hearing right, you said that Tomás is about possibility and taking steps. And the idea that you are being greeted, met by him in terms of what's possible, what you could do on your own terms.
and then walking together in the steps toward trying that. Am I hearing you right? I felt as if my attempt to reflect it back actually under emphasized your point.
Wei Jou Huang (10:25)
I mean, it's just like, you can see that kind of possibility and you can kind of see the future you can actually build and but at the same time, Tomas is really, really like realistic. mean, he would plan every, every small steps in a very comprehensive way. So you think, you think, okay, if I really
follow this kind of path, I can find out a way to do and it's impossible. So I think it's really, it's a great learning experience from my own perspective, because I always skip a lot of things and just jumping around and I think stick with Tobals is really helped me to actually map it out and just follow those steps and just try to go to the future I want to pursue.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (10:56)
Huh.
It's unusual what you're saying because so often we have dreamers who stay in the land of what they'd like and what might be possible. And then we have practical people who take steps toward it. And it sounds as if you're saying that this is a combination of both. Tomas, if we Wei Jou hasn't.
completely embarrassed you into signing off this interview. Is this something that you do intentionally, this combination that she's describing?
Tomás Mora Selva (11:59)
Well, thank you Alejandro. First of all, thank you Mim and Alejandro for having me in this episode and also Weiju for joining us. I think everyone can understand now why Weiju got the best grade last year, right? Not an accident. It was all prepared. It was all prepared leading to this moment. Everything last year I was thinking of this. So, and I was insisting, please invite her, invite her to this.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (12:17)
Hahaha
Yeah
Tomás Mora Selva (12:29)
Now, I would say, I mean, all what the way Jo was sharing is very kind from her side. However, I would say that what I try to do is to help them do what they want to do. Try to help them reach to those places where they want to reach out to, or help them to become who they want to become. I try to do that.
And in the end, it's a learning path that is structured but flexible at the same time, which they can take in different directions, the same steps or similar steps. And whatever they find at the their own, it's their journey. And hopefully, you and I, Alejandro and others like us can just help them realize.
Realize this, that in the end it's all up to them. We are just here to help on the way. Nothing else.
I hope it answers your question, maybe not.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (13:33)
There's at least three
amazing themes that you've raised there that we can pick up on later from it being on their terms, what they want to solve all the way through to that combination of.
that you described. And then finally, the sense that your role as a teacher isn't to teach, if I'm hearing right. It's to create a space to enable and almost to get out of the way that provides structure. So those are all themes we can pick up on. But first, Mam, I can feel you burning to ask a
Mim Plavin-Masterman (14:06)
Well, my question was actually about this tension between structure and exploration. And so is it something where to go back to this idea of helping the people become who they're trying to be, does that mixture change for the groups that you work with, depending on the skills the groups come with? like, guess, let me ask it this way, is there a recipe, or is it always, it's kind of a recipe, but the ingredients and the
and the proportions change depending on who's in the group and what they need from you as an instructor.
Tomás Mora Selva (14:38)
I can tell you how I cook at home. Maybe it helps. So,
Mim Plavin-Masterman (14:43)
Okay. That probably will help explain a lot. Yes.
Tomás Mora Selva (14:47)
my wife, for instance, she cooks with the recipe that she needs to follow and she usually buys the ingredients and likes to follow those steps according to someone else's recipe. What I do is I open the fridge and then whatever I got, I make what I want to believe and also some dish out of it. So there's no real structure. I mean, it should not appear or...
is not visible for everyone or I remember at the beginning of being with her, she thought it was total improvisation and out of luck every time, but there are some things that are down there that you kind of know how it needs to look and taste, whatever you are throwing into the pan or the pot or combination of both and also the oven. So.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (15:31)
Tomas, before
you go on, can I just say this is amazing because in a recent episode with two people we've worked with in the Philippines, Ari Luis Jelos and Charneel Antiporda, literally the conversation went to going into that fridge with very few ingredients. And listeners, I didn't tell Tomas about this. That episode had not yet been released. It's unreleased.
Tomás Mora Selva (15:34)
Yeah.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (15:57)
Nobody's heard it yet. No one's...
Tomás Mora Selva (15:59)
I don't
I have no idea.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (16:01)
This is just across time zones and continents, we are having a shared conversation. There's an incredible synchronicity. So please continue.
Tomás Mora Selva (16:11)
think it's always about food though. So answering to your question, Mim, and this is what non-formal education is about and also what it's similar and different to formal education. In non-formal education, we should have clear and measurable learning goals. Although the path to reach out to them, to reach to those learning goals, it's
changing according to the context and the students. So yes, there are some adjustments and changes according to who they are, what do they do, how do they feel. You cannot have the same, you apply the same methods and tools for all kinds of contexts, all kinds of students or all kinds of participants. But I would say if I had to highlight something, it's despite of...
of showing that there is a lot of flexibility and this looks like it's fun and this is we are playing things and we are just chatting here with each other, there should be a sometimes non-visible structure behind that, that the facilitator or the teacher in this case, it's guiding them a little bit onto that both apparently invisible path, but it's actually there, it's set for them.
And then sometimes you will be hitting off some of the steps. Sometimes you will be close to the steps, but not exactly stepping on the steps, but nearby as far as not to weigh in another direction. And sometimes I have to admit that sometimes things when they're totally opposite or different direction than expected. And what we should do in those cases is take the opportunity to see if it's actually possible to, okay, this was taking us to a totally different direction. Let's explore that direction. If it's possible.
If it's not possible, aka being inside of a formal institution, because they need the grades and things like this, you in the end need to start to put them a little bit more focused into where the learning goals of the students, yours and the formal education institution meet.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (18:15)
Okay.
Right. I want to pick up on two things you said. One is this idea of an invisible structure. And it makes me think at first of Maria Montessori and how in a Montessori classroom there will be certain
building games like a pink tower for example that have mathematical proportions built into them and the idea is that children just play with these Tools and that it brings out the mathematical proportions. This is my very lay version of Montessori's idea and so I want to ask you since obviously you're not teaching math, although your first math problems coming in just a moment, man
Since obviously you're not teaching mathematics in these classrooms, you're teaching something else. What is that thing you're teaching and how do you create invisible structure for
I want to understand if this is your designing a course or a space where these things can be practiced and mastered. What creates that? And along with that, the you mentioned that the context couldn't be generic, right? It can't be one size fits all. So I'm so curious whether you've been able whether this is personal and Tomas has to be there.
Tomás Mora Selva (19:21)
Ha
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (19:37)
or whether you've been able to inculcate this in a growing group of people in different industries and regions as I think you have. And if so, how you bring that structure while keeping it responsive.
Tomás Mora Selva (19:45)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I would start from the last part you mentioned. Okay, I will not deny it. There is a big, or not big, but there is an important component based on experience. So in the end, to be able to teach in general, you need to have, I mean, the more experienced you are, the better teacher you become, at least this is how it should be, or how I've seen in the past. When it comes about handling these innovative learning paths and processes,
It's also relevant because you need to be aware of that invisible path and do some little tweaks and changes along the way. So there are not so clear indicators, like if I do an exam and test in the middle of the course, and then I know where my students are, like too far from what I expected at the end or too close. So they're not those hardcore proofs where I can show you how far or how close you are, of course.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (20:48)
So there aren't any exams, you're saying, because listeners don't know. So help us understand,
Tomás Mora Selva (20:50)
No, they are not in exams.
Yes, but there are other tools that you can use, like reflection sessions, feedback sessions with the students. And reply to your question, which is, this depends only on me, or this can be replicated. There are many other facilitators and trainers, experts in non-formal education that I know, that I work with. I had the pleasure to work with a lot of them in Europe.
I don't know so many around the world, but I'm sure there are as well. And it's possible to replicate this and to do it in other parts. And I think the easiest it becomes is when you understand that the main star in this process are the students or the participants, not yourself. When you are there to help them shine, then it's also a bit, care for responsibility is not that much on me. It's not like I need to lecture everyone with my...
reveal knowledge or with my experience as a talk, but more of, okay, this is the knowledge, I'm throwing things here and I'm preparing activities for you to think, to reflect about this knowledge, and then I want you to speak with each other about this knowledge, and then I want you to create on top of this knowledge, and then I want you to cross-examine those things you created, speaking with others, and to me, getting feedback, being able to receive feedback, giving feedback, meaningful feedback to others.
and then doing changes on the things that you were crafting with that initial knowledge.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (22:25)
Can we hear your perspective on this topic, especially as someone who participated first as a student and then subsequently enabling other folks from, I understand, a whole range of countries and working with facilitators from multiple continents? How is that structure articulated from your point of view?
Wei Jou Huang (22:47)
So based on what Tomas saying, I what this entire course or what he's doing is basically create a system for every student can learn and growth by doing, by creating, by actually launching something in the world. I'm not sure. I mean, like every student develop the driven project. That's for sure. But I'm very sure everyone have
really learn a lot and growth after this entire process. So just like leaving the stage for those like student with a really high potential and just let it shine on the stage. It's from my own perspective from a decision system. Yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (23:29)
Would you?
Would you break
down for listeners what kinds of projects we're talking about? What kinds of potential and learning that you mean? Give us a little bit of context or a story for this for folks who may not even know what these real world projects would be.
Wei Jou Huang (23:48)
So the score is in, so first of all, you're a team on with a bunch of people and those people is multicultural and also from the different country in the world. So that's the first learning because you need to learn actually how to work with those people. And it also the really, really benefit thing until now because
I grew so much by just working with them and communicating with them and trying to learn how to cooperate with the different cultural differences and the time differences. So that's first word.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (24:29)
Can you give us an anecdote
about one of those differences and what you learned from it if one comes to mind? A story?
Wei Jou Huang (24:35)
I think first of all, last year I have a team member from Afghanistan. And I think it's really, really hard to actually then her to fit with our workflow because it means it the culture. I'm from Asia, I'm not in Europe, but like some of the team members in Europe.
So we very used to work in the environment that totally online or have lots of technical tool or we just really used to share our thoughts and experience and be really honest to each other. But I think that's particularly member. In the beginning, she's very, very confident and also have some problems about
how to actually collaborate with us and I think it's because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's because her experience is that the first years of college, she experienced the lockdown of her country. South Afghanistan is taken by the Taliban and it's very traumatic and it's like...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (25:38)
Very unconfident, you said, right? That was the word you said. She doesn't have confidence. Confidence? Okay, go ahead.
Wei Jou Huang (26:03)
It's very terrible situation right now. So at that moment she's become very, very hopeless, but at the same time she's also trying to find some other way to learn and growth. And we all feel very, very like, excited and grateful that she willing to try to work with us and
I can see, I can see her growth after this entire project. And it's really moved me. So that's why I'm thinking this kind of education is really different from lots of educators we have in our school. Because we can really grow and we really take something with us and it will last for our entire life.
So we will become different person after this course. So that's a different learning because through this collaboration series, kind of project based developing and we can learn some scale and we can have some emotion like that will make us remember. And also it's really, it will have a real lasting effect throughout our life. So.
Yeah, I think that's my conclusion. I think I little bit talk too much, but thank you.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (27:34)
No, it's great. So one
thing I wanted to pick up on something you said and something Tomas said earlier is this. bear with me while I situate it in an educational setting as someone who teaches in a business program. In many ways, this is a business class. It's a business curriculum, but it's being treated. And I mean this in the best way as
as much of an art as a science and the idea that you're creating this personal portfolio of work, that it's about the growth of the person through the process, that we don't all end up in the same place, that there are many right answers. There's a sort of portfolio artistic quality to it that encourages like this unique development versus a very regimented, okay, we all take the test, you score this, you get this right, you get this wrong, we move on. So it's very, I've never really thought of it in this way until I heard you guys talking about it.
but there's something very, like this idea that you take it with you, this portfolio, like you could put it in a binder or on a flash drive and it's yours forever. And so there's this really interesting thing that you're both talking about that is very sort of artistic way of developing a very skill-based competency.
Tomás Mora Selva (28:43)
although I want to emphasize that it's not about like here in this course because I don't want, I mean for sure you didn't say it this way, but I just want to emphasize that it's not about, everyone has different capabilities that we all fit here, all the replies, all the answers to the
Professor's questions are okay. So we are not so, I mean, we are not so much paying attention in what do the students do or say in the end, everyone gets a pass. I just want to emphasize that it's not so much that way, but there is a part that yes, it is, because what we try to prioritize is that at the end of the course, students are able to say, look,
Mim Plavin-Masterman (29:07)
Yeah, no, right.
Tomás Mora Selva (29:34)
I discovered that I have an entrepreneur inside of me and I didn't know it. Or I want to pursue this path. Or the project I developed in this course, it really kept me up at nights. So when did the subject in the university before did that to you? Probably almost never. When was it exciting for you to join the university class? Like, this is the kind of things we want to achieve because...
hopefully it's meaningful, it's a relatable, meaningful experience for the students where they can develop these skills and these competencies rather than just acquiring terms that I don't, please don't judge me for this, but I don't care so much if they know what net income is at the end of the course or what is break-even point, which,
Those things can be Googled in a second and then Google tells you what are those or you charge them or what is net income, what is a breakeven point.
We try to say this to the students that we don't have the answers for everything and we try to help them set them in that path of self-discovery and search of what they're looking for. And then in the end, although it's true that our experience and our advice when they develop their project, it can be valuable and it's important, does not mean that it's the revealed truth because...
in the entrepreneurship field, someone can tell you, no, no, business is A, B, C, and then two plus two equals four, but that's not true. So sometimes yes, sometimes not. And it's important to have knowledge and experiences and lot of advice, but the most important thing of all of it is that you believe in what you want to do and you pursue the dream. And then on the way, you need to learn some concepts and work some concepts that we work during the course as well.
But I'm not gonna value or I'm not gonna aim to just that you know all the pieces well one by one. I want you to see, I want you to understand how the whole machine works. And then you focus on the pieces, you hone the knowledge of each piece along your journey, life journey of being an entrepreneur, not in a three month course, it's impossible.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (31:51)
Mmm.
So I'm hearing that this is quite rigorous, but also about dreams and exploration of the kind that led you, Jou, to say that you were a different person at the end and took something lasting with you. So maybe we could turn to you for a moment, Wei Jou and tell us what was rigorous. Was it hard compared to
one of your courses where you're focused on oceanographic science or what have you, what was hard about it versus where was this freedom and this exploration and this chance to become a different person? Can you really make that vivid? If I hadn't been there and didn't know anything about it for you both as a participant and then later making this possible for others.
Wei Jou Huang (32:44)
would like categorize this kind of learning in two different ways because first of all for the oceanography learning it's just for my curiosity because i think i think i'm really curious and i really want to know
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (32:56)
Mm.
Wei Jou Huang (33:01)
more about the earth and more about the environment. So why I'm doing this because I really curious and I feel happy and excited about doing this. But the learning is this kind of product-based, this course. I think it's just like our life. I mean, like it's that continuously and also you need to think more deeply and you need to think some something.
like responsible to the world and also you also need to this kind of learning will never stop and and it's very dynamic and it's very flexible and but
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (33:47)
What's dynamic
and flexible? Paint a picture for folks. What is this flexible dynamic, never stop learning? Give us maybe something like that happened while you were going through this experience that would illustrate that for folks hearing it.
Wei Jou Huang (34:02)
So when I tried to develop some projects, this kind of project and this kind of course, it really made me think of lots of my life experience because I think my entire like growing experience really like developing this kind of project in this learning process because it's always, it's always changing, always shifting.
but we have a very clear core value here. But in order to get to that core value, you need to be really flexible and dynamic in lots of
Tomás Mora Selva (34:44)
add one thing and say this on behalf of Wei Jou that she doesn't dare to say and all the students that we had before, Alejandro, to make a comparison of how it is, this question about how rigorous it is and how flexible it is. Wei Jou, if you agree, just laugh. If not, correct me, please. Almost 99.9 % of the students
Wei Jou Huang (34:44)
Okay, okay.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (35:05)
Hahaha!
Tomás Mora Selva (35:10)
when they start this course with us, they do feel that it's a pain in the ass. That's a lot of work, a lot of job to do. Like, no, no, no, no, the course it is. Like, so much assignments every week? They're asking us to be online constantly with the camera on, answering to our questions, engaging in debates. They make us talk. They make us just get out of the podcast.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (35:18)
Wait, you're a pain in the ass or it's... No, go on.
Tomás Mora Selva (35:38)
mode and I cannot be doing my chores at home and listening to the class. I have to be participating in the class. So there's this phase at the beginning of the course where they think that this is too strict program with a weekly assignment where everything is specified until the last thing. That you have to write three comments in three different projects every week before class. And then every week you need to be ready to prepare your project five minutes presentation and be ready to be picked up, et cetera.
and they're freaking out. They're like, my God, like many students actually dropped at the beginning of the class thinking that this is way too much work for them. And then there is rise of phase where they start to fall in love with the project and the solution that they are trying to build and then start to don't care so much about these things and thinking, well, this is what I want to do. So I kind of don't mind what they are throwing at me. And then at the end of the course, they realize of
wow, they were not so hard on us. I could have slacked a bit more in the beginning maybe, or in the end they are like overproducing. No, And then in the end they're like, my God, I think it's not enough, I want to do more. And I was grading actually earlier before this podcast and I was seeing like, wow, this student did more than I was asking in the, like I cannot put more points.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (36:41)
Ha
Wei Jou Huang (36:43)
you
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (36:44)
We need to edit this part
Tomás Mora Selva (37:03)
Like I don't have more points to win. more color to help wait to explain the course.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (37:04)
So folks going beyond what it's possible to recognize with a grade. Now
that's a rich topic I'd love to get into is what enables someone. mean, Ojo, oceanography, difficult. I've seen you go beyond what anyone was possibly asking or expecting of you. Both when you were working on a project as a student and in coaching this. let's also, look, we've been talking about a course, but.
as you are now thinking about helping to design and enable, of course, focused on leading change in organizations as opposed to entrepreneurship per se. So that's three areas where you are choosing to go way beyond what anyone is asking you for or rewarding you for. Can you speak to why?
And I'd love to hear about the kinds of problems you're digging into. If it's true, what Tomas says, that you're falling in love with the problem and the attempt to solve it. What are the problems you've worked on both in, on team greenies just now, and I'll let you reveal there. And finally looking ahead as you think about this next piece.
Wei Jou Huang (38:30)
Actually I want to follow up the Terrible Miles point in the beginning just like the culture shock movie. Because I'm like in Taiwan and our education is all like really traditional thing and this course has actually really shocked me but I in the end I'd be addicted to this kind of experience.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (38:54)
What shocked
you and what addicted you? Where,
Wei Jou Huang (38:58)
So first of all, because in our country, a lot of university courses, would be like the professor just teaching the stage and all the students just doing the stuff or maybe taking notes and no one is interacting with professor and no one's asking question and the course is in and all the evaluation is through the exam. So.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (39:21)
And in that case, what's your job as a student
in that kind of traditional course? Your job is, said, to take notes. And then what? You're evaluated on what? Your capacity to do.
Wei Jou Huang (39:35)
to take exam. I always say, yeah, exactly. I always say you only train you how to take an exam. You would know like what kind of questions would be asked by professor and you know how to answer it to that high score and you will never have your life. So it's just like, how do you like take an exam?
Tomás Mora Selva (39:37)
capacity to memorize and then replicate.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (39:51)
Mm-hmm.
Got it.
Got
it. So you're learning to memorize what the professor has said and then answer when asked. Okay. So that's baseline. Now tell us what shocked you and as much as possible, if you can describe it in very sort of situational terms, that would be helpful. So let's move away from, it was very dynamic and say, in what way, what was shocking? And then what did you get addicted?
Wei Jou Huang (40:29)
So first of all, I would say...
maybe the whole course structure because you just look at a set of this and you can tell the difference immediately because every every week have so many different things to do and also it's a very like project based courses. So you will have a clear idea what you will learn and what you'll get from this kind of course. But only thing you know is you'll be really fun because it has so many
different thing you can try and so intense, super, super intense.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (41:04)
So what do you have to do
or what do you get to try that is not the same as listening to what Tomas says and then being tested on whether you can say it back? What are you being asked to do or getting to do?
Wei Jou Huang (41:20)
I think it's just perspective. It's a role, the shift of the role of the teacher and professor because in a very traditional teaching condition.
And you have to see that you're just a receiver of what professors just need and what professors just say. But in this kind of like this kind of condition, you will become the kind of producer because you're creating something, create your own product and you try to create like through all the process, all the project and you really
try to like bring something up and try to make your idea into real life. And also through this process, I think the entire like role change really helps a lot during this learning. So it's a main difference.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (42:06)
Mm.
So you're changing roles. Tell us about the project you just worked on. Mim, you are about to head us in a direction.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (42:28)
one was an observation of sort of these two styles of teaching, Alejandro and I have talked about this, the sage on the stage versus the guide on the side. And what I'm hearing from you and Tomás is this is very much the guide on the side, helping you get to the answer versus the sage on the stage, writing on the board, you memorize the answers and spit them back. So it's just a very different way. It's an old, like, I don't know, 34. Yeah.
Wei Jou Huang (42:51)
Yeah, I just like being told the answer and you find
the answer by the action is a little entirely different learning process, think. Thanks for bringing up.
Mim Plavin-Masterman (42:59)
Right. So
yeah, so was hoping you could talk a little bit about this guide on the side process as it helped you in the project Greenies last year and as the project that you helped mentor this year. Sort of in one case, somebody else was the guide on the side, but then the second time you were the guide on the side. So I was hoping you could sort of compare those for us.
Wei Jou Huang (43:22)
I think I kind of want to brought back to Alejandro like previous question about the core value I'm working on. As you know, I'm studying environment and also like I really, really, really care about and love like really deeply about this planet and this environment. So the problem or the project I'm trying to develop will be
mostly environmental related or sustainable ability project. So in the very beginning for the greening is the habit building app to help people to lead a sustainable life by like building a sustainable habit. So it's basically try to like let people to know
Each small step they are taking is actually matter to the entire planet. And they can actually do something to this. Since very huge and very unsolved problem, but if they taking like daily action and they can actually contribute to lots of amounts of carbon emission and we actually do the calculations. So, so that's this kind of heavy building platform.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (44:45)
Do
you mean you developed some sort of a platform for them to do that? And in a moment, maybe you can also talk about the work with team repurpose, which is maybe more focused on a very specific application. But I think Tomas, you were about to jump in if my ears were buzzing right.
Wei Jou Huang (44:59)
Hmm.
Tomás Mora Selva (45:10)
I was gonna say that it's funny because last year, I was actually advising Tim Greenies to go, don't go that way, that path down of creating an app to raise awareness of environment for people because it's funny, no? Because in the end, look at her, she's here and actually,
Wei Jou Huang (45:27)
HMM!
Tomás Mora Selva (45:39)
Initially, was not, I did not agree or I'd say, it's not that I don't agree, but again, they create their own things. I cannot tell them, not do that. I just can't tell them what dangers does it have and what's important and what's not. making the right questions. So as you can see, in the end, they develop this, they still, no, no, we want to work with the team, and we want to do this and that. I think they shifted a little bit.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (45:53)
Mmm.
Uh-huh.
Tomás Mora Selva (46:08)
Thanks to that, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, too, but.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (46:11)
So wait, the guide
on the side doesn't tell you what to do or what not to do. They just say, if you're Gandalf, there's dangers in the minds of Maria, on.
Tomás Mora Selva (46:15)
I didn't get to tell
them not to do so. I kind of told them, people nowadays have so much access to information. Like, why you are relevant to the people? Explain to why. They couldn't, though. I'm still waiting for that answer.
Wei Jou Huang (46:21)
Yeah, yeah, And it's also a time of
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (46:36)
Your exam begins now, which...
Wei Jou Huang (46:38)
I'm stressed out. that's what exactly Tomon's saying. And I will say, although this project might not really come to the world, like relaunch it, but...
the whole entire learning process is still here. And I think it's a very valuable experience for me and for all of my teammates as well. And I think I want to bring back to the repurpose this project because, yes.
Tomás Mora Selva (47:10)
Just one second to finish
with the Greenies project. That's why you got a good grade, not so much because of the solution that Greenies provided, but the evolution you had at that team. People from Europe, you from Taiwan, Afghanistan, one of you going to Mexico. So it was like all the time possible, time zones possible in the world, different cultural backgrounds.
Wei Jou Huang (47:15)
Okay.
Tomás Mora Selva (47:37)
You worked through that, even it was this idea that I was not agreeing with. You managed to work through that to have meetings on the side. You were sending me emails asking for feedback. You were like really 100 % entrepreneurs, even though your very first team idea. I might have my arguments against it, but still that was not the relevant point of, how good was the solution that we're developing.
how good was the process that they were doing. That was for us the important part of that course. And that's how we try to reflect it at the end in your grades and also while you're here and while you're working in another team this year, which we're about to say repurpose.
Wei Jou Huang (48:22)
So I think thank you so much for your help and yes, I'm like really learn a lot and grow a lot after the process. And I think for an entrepreneur, it's really normal to get a really shitty idea and fall in the beginning. So I can't get rid of that. So anyway, now I'm gross and I'm here.
So the second project is with Purpers and it's one of the plastic challenge brought by BRAC U and BRAC having as an NGO in the world largest NGO. So basically they tried to solve the problem that there's a lot of plastic called bizarre and which is the longest beach.
in the world is in Bangladesh and they tried to gather a group of people developing some solution trying to address this kind of plastic problem and our team has repurposed. We were tackling the main problem of the recycling facility is inefficient.
and it's outdated. so, so the story will be they collected a lot of plastic, but they don't back to the environment because there's no facility and there's no capacity for them to process those kind of plastic. So our solution would be we will took those plastic and we try to make it into relatively high value final product, which is the 3D printing development. And we try to sell it to the market.
And through this process, we can kind of tackle those, like no one wants those kind of plans and you can take it and make it into the final product. So that's the entire idea of WordPurpose. So this year we work with the team from Bangladesh and also one is from Europe. It's also the cross-cultural.
And it's really good for the market examination because we can do the examination in a very different cultural scenario and a different market. So it's also a really good learning experience as well.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (50:38)
What was addictive about all this?
Wei Jou Huang (50:40)
Hmm.
some examples of the pitching. So the pitching is a process, a fishbowl. In this course, we will have a session, it's called a fishbowl.
which means some sort of a team would need to be presented their idea and the project to the entire, the student and the professor to the entire team. And they will gather some feedback through this process. So in the beginning, all of my teammates, greenies, like they are really panicking about this kind of process, fish-balling, because it's stressful and it needs lots of
to prepare to be perfect. We hope so, but it's not that perfect presentation. And, but through the multiple time being fishbowl, actually we got addicted to this process. Every time we go to the local session with Tomoz and we're asking if we can fishbowl in a local session. Because we really, really love that process. Like just...
Presenting idea and get our feedback that fact fastest and most effective learning ever Our team has experience so that's we're really good at to addicting to this kind of pitching and fish bowling
Tomás Mora Selva (52:10)
It actually was every week. Okay, who wants to be kicked today? we, we, we, please, pick us, us. Okay, you. Go to the spotlight. Go to the spotlight. And then it was like, huh. No, bye.
Wei Jou Huang (52:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (52:18)
Heh
Wei Jou Huang (52:22)
you
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (52:22)
What's so
great about these this this kicking? Seriously, what did you why did you want to present? Yeah, good.
Tomás Mora Selva (52:28)
Well, yeah.
I just want to say that this is how usually until they get it, this is how they perceive it because everyone is like very proudly made something out and then it's they feel as they baby and they're very sensitive about it. So when they expose it in front of other people, they feel like they are being exposing themselves out. And then when they get any critique or any feedback, many of them get defensive so quickly.
Instead of trying to understand what the other person is saying, or actually what we try to do, to offer them and to get the chance of measuring themselves against the real world, when they take the defensive position, they feel like they're being kicked, that they did all this effort, that they've been put in front of the class, which is a large audience or not, and then they present, they do their best in five minutes presenting the project and then...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (53:16)
Mm.
Tomás Mora Selva (53:30)
how it comes that they get feedback, sometimes negative feedback, or I mean, always aiming to prove something, but they always wonder like, why, why, ha ha, I don't like this experience. Until they start to learn and understand that actually this is how the real world works, a little bit in a way, where you will always have to try to do something and someone else will try to tear it down.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (53:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tomás Mora Selva (53:55)
even if it's to understand it, because nobody creates perfect things at the first go. And that's why everyone needs a little bit of contrasting their ideas against other people's ideas and realities and experiences. And I think once they get the hang of it, they love it. As Wei Jou was saying, we won this week also as well, fishbowl. But it's not so common. And usually, my experience, youngsters or students, they struggle a lot.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (54:00)
Mm-hmm.
Tomás Mora Selva (54:24)
until they can learn to appreciate to be critiqued or to be put in front of a group to expose their ideas or their thoughts, whatever they came up
Mim Plavin-Masterman (54:35)
So to follow up on that, Weijia, when you were mentoring the group this past year, how did you get them or how did they make that mindset shift that Tomas is talking about going from, my God, don't kick me to I want to present.
Wei Jou Huang (54:50)
I think the main thing that actually makes this kind of shit is from like interior or something like outside because when you really
Like when you really enjoy what you're doing and really believe in the solution, the project you are developing. Like it's, it's nothing about the grading or it's nothing about the course. It's not, it's not just the homework in any other courses. It's the thing is that it's what you want to develop and it's the, it's a project and it's like, you really, really love this.
and you love it so deeply, so you would try to make it into a real world as soon as possible. I mean, like the fish, yeah, yeah, I mean, like the fish-fishing and pitching we found is the most effective way to learn and also to grow. And from outside, I think the mind-ship will be... So...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (55:46)
into the real world as soon as possible. He said, yeah.
Wei Jou Huang (56:05)
Actually all the co-instructors and all the students that try to give you some some idea some feedback they're helping you like although they sometimes they might be a little bit harsh on you but like the very original thought is that they're really trying to help you and when you realize it
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (56:28)
So yeah,
yeah, it's a kind of trust that I hear you describing. I think of analogy to folks going up and improvising, right? Whether they're doing comedy or they're playing jazz or whatever. And when they're workshopping, the idea at first of getting on stage and having to improvise, right? No script is terrifying. But then
folks learn and this is what I hear you saying about sort of trust in this process that's towards the real world. Folks learn that if they want to actually be in stage before an audience doing that, they'd better.
take advantage of these opportunities to do it in the workshop where they'll respond to various situations, they'll get critiqued in various ways and start to trust that this isn't a one-time process where if they bomb, right, in the sense of having a bad reception from the audience, it doesn't feel right, it's over. But instead, if they bomb, it's toward being able to do it.
for that audience or in your sense for the real world. So what I'm hearing you saying that intrigues me though is that it's not only trust in the space, Trust in the way Tomás or the peers or these co-instructors you talk about from around the world will respond, but it's also trust in the process of going out there and doing it because really doing it, really cleaning up this beach, it's gonna be very hard.
really cleaning our coastlines, something covered in plastic as they are, is something we haven't figured out. So it sounds to me as if trust in that process actually is the only thing that could give you enough of that feedback loop to have a prayer of doing it.
Tomás Mora Selva (58:27)
Trust in the process is one of the principles of non-female education. Just adding. This way,
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (58:35)
You're making me think, I'd love to ask about, so you all have focused on one course, you're calling it. And I understand that although it's a course, it's not only students in universities that take part, right? That this team repurpose that actually was the top team.
this year that you coached involved people from Cox's Bazaar in Bangladesh and a project working with this NGO, this non-governmental organization, BRAC, that you mentioned, to actually clean those beaches, to work with women who are entrepreneurs who can create real projects to clean those beaches. So if I'm understanding, this isn't just in the classroom.
And this real world part is not just a term of art you're using. We actually want to clean the beaches. And then if I also understand that there are groups that aren't three universities at all, such as we've had Nico de Klerk on this podcast and those groups that are in the townships of South Africa through the Bia Nelson program. So that's context. But I understand
way at Wei Jou that you're being asked or you're considering once again going beyond what's required of you and being involved in a distinct application this spring, which is to leading change within organizations. And can you talk with us a little bit how the process that you've applied to entrepreneurs could apply to those trying to transform organizations
whether to transform their carbon footprint or otherwise.
Wei Jou Huang (1:00:32)
Thanks for bringing this up and to be honest, I hadn't took that course before so I also as a freshman, yeah I also be a student in it and start learning during this course as well but maybe I will have a better idea after like this learning too.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:00:41)
You haven't been a student in it, right?
Wei Jou Huang (1:00:57)
actually brings on something after, like as an entrepreneur. So I think the sphere is very similar.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:01:03)
So as an
intrapreneur, this is a very, very fair response. Tomas, I have this image in my mind of you drawing a tree that includes both the entrepreneurial experiences that we've been talking about and these experiences within organizations. Can you tell us about that tree and how it works, whether for a project like Greenies, where you branch off with some skills?
Wei Jou Huang (1:01:07)
Yes.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:01:30)
Project like Repurpose where you may actually launch that project and then what you bring to organizations. Can you describe the tree that you envision for us?
Tomás Mora Selva (1:01:39)
If I understood correctly the question you made to Wei Jou, like in the coming course in this spring which is leading change and how all that we've been discussing could apply also to leading change, and I will help Wei Jou in this and also link it to your question with the three alhambra. I think it's, okay, I don't wanna say it's easy, but I will use the word easy because in the end it's
basically the same thing applies. Not oceanography, I don't want to get into that. I don't know about oceanography. That's why I'm happy with Jo. I will ask her any question about the oceanography or charge GPT, one of the two. I don't know which one. But for the in-tains.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:02:13)
Right, unlike oceanography, which is not easy. Go on.
Wei Jou Huang (1:02:25)
Yeah, please.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:02:29)
This is like John Henry,
woman versus machine, Weijo versus Chad GPT going.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:02:35)
whomever replies to me first, my question about oceanography, but about leading change inside of organizations in the end, to lead that change, you need to have that entrepreneurial spirit inside. So it has totally different paths and sometimes you require different things to start your own venture than leading a change inside an existing venture. Although in the end,
is the same drive inside of yourself. There's something that there is something you want to change. And there is a problem that you want to solve either inside of an existing organization or creating some vehicle to solve another problem. So an organization does not exist. And in relationship to the tree that you are mentioning, Alejandro, probably because audience does not know about this tree, but...
There is a way, a graphic way of expressing how could we solve more efficiently problems in this world by using entrepreneurs or by, let's say, by training entrepreneurs. And not only entrepreneurs, but also intrapreneurs. So you could imagine this tree and the roots and the trunk. There is a channel of intrapreneurs.
Some people use an army of entrepreneurs. I'm not so keen of the word army itself. I would call it a large group of people coming into a, would appear as a funnel, but in the end is at the roots of a tree. then helping them, equipping them to equip them with tools, necessary tools to then exit that channel or exit that tree and start a new branch of that tree that will, when they create a new solution.
when they create a new venture, they're And then that branch at same time will grow into multiple other branches. And hopefully we'll have that greener effect and tree that we want at the end. But also you could exit that same tree within creating that change inside of your organization. And you will be also impacting lots of other people's lives and.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:04:39)
Mmm.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:04:57)
nature and other problems that you want to solve or your organization is working on. the ultimate goal of it as you go imagine this trip up the, sorry, this trip up the tree, at the end, what you will have in the crown, it's multiple branches from people who actually learned how to start or how to be an entrepreneur or actually
turn on the sparkle of being an entrepreneur inside of them while going through this course and this certificate that we try to promote. That's maybe you'll.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:05:37)
I love as I
listen the sense of this global brain trust across continents going through a shared thought process and process of experimentation. The army that you're referring to, Sebastian Crowe and I came up with this idea of an army of entrepreneurs doing climate in the global south. And he gave a speech.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:05:43)
Mm-hmm.
It was you.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:06:02)
the COP conference about that, that really got people thinking. And I love that, you know, we're refining that idea as you say, I don't really see it as an army, more like a larger group of people. And similarly, you mentioned the funnel. I had drawn the two funnels with their spouts together. I'm remembering now. And then you looked at that and said, no, wait a minute, these are really branches of a tree. And I even forgot that I was so into your tree. So I like this idea that we're kind of evolving something, not just through those conversations, but also through trying all these things.
It really makes me want to ask Tomas, can this be this process of entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs building these skills? Can this be brought to just a few people in a few courses, or can this kind of non-formal learning to solve our problems be much broader? And can it be something conducted at scale? And when I say at scale, I'm very conscious that I don't mean
traditional scale where it's just everybody does the same thing with the same tool in the same ways, but a different notion of scale where it's lots of people percolating and comparing notes on their solutions and experiments in the ways you've described. Can that happen?
Tomás Mora Selva (1:07:17)
Well,
A little introduction. All my life what I've been trying to replicate is success stories that sometimes I live. And what I always try to be is a catalyst. I had experience of myself this way of learning and one of my aims in this life is to replicate that and
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:07:26)
Mm.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:07:45)
to train and help other people at the same time do the same thing. Because I prefer to reach out to reach to a hundred other people like me who will teach another thousand people rather than just teaching me directly a hundred students. And in that sense, I do believe that using the right tools and method, there is a way of involving not just
not just hundreds, but thousands of people around the world. In the following way, usually what we need to be a professor, okay, you need to have a title education, formal education needs to be involved perhaps. However, to become an entrepreneur, you don't need that. And to help other people to become entrepreneurs, you do not need that. So if we teach people how to practically...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:08:35)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:08:42)
help and enhance and enable other people, it will be much easier to have bigger waves in this effect that we are trying to achieve here. And at the same time, if those people in their environment are involving more and more people just to give them feedback, to know about the thing, in a way they are also involved in this. And instead of thinking of the classic approach of...
university or high school where there is a professor that teaches 30 students a year. And then, okay, if something comes out from that, good, but maybe it doesn't. In this other approach, we try to touch hundreds and maybe thousands, possible, in the next years. And then maybe from those thousands, we'll be luckier to get the solutions that we need rather than out of 30 people on a class.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:09:36)
So instead of just seeding a few places with fertilizer and water, we seed a lot of different kinds and see what comes. I want to, as we close our discussion for today, really dwell on the point you've just made where you said, as folks learn how to help, enhance, and enable. Because it really struck me as the two of you described your interaction early in there in this conversation.
that there was this process where Tomas, you were helping enhancing and enabled and you played that role for Weijio. And then Weijio, you started, began to play that role for others, right? For team repurpose and now looking ahead for the whole leading change process. Now, what I'd love to understand as we bring this to a close is from each of your points of view,
What would it take to enable many people? What's your experience been? Wait, Wei Jou, you mentioned co-instructors and we didn't really, with seeing folks join a process and learn to take that role, both yourself and some of the others who were working with the global group for the first time this year, what does it take to become enablers and
Could that enable us, could that make it possible for this to happen, this process you two have described so beautifully for millions of problem solvers or thousands in Tomas's formulation? I'm always a little American optimist. I already took your thousands and raised you millions. But seriously, and Tomas, if you're comfortable, say a little bit, I'd be curious to know about the co-instructors around the world having created this.
New Democratizing Innovation Institute and how that relates to that question. So first, can we make it possible for many people to do this?
Tomás Mora Selva (1:11:42)
Yes, well, I will try, but I will need your help, Alejandro, as well, because you are inside the Democratizing Innovation Institute as well. So you're part of that. And what we are trying to do that, it's to bring those
those learnings, those tools that we applied in the courses that we have been talking about, these ways of teaching, these ways of helping and hazing other people, not only youngsters, because there are other participants who are like me or older than me, than myself, and to help them realize that they have the potential to become entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. And that set of tools and courses are...
are also easier for other people in our role to join, which means that that can reproduce even a bigger effect. So the way to get in, we make it easy for those who want to get in and help us. then thanks to that, people like Nico, the clerk in South Africa can be joining and enabling a community of youth workers.
and then the third communities in South Africa, which in another way would have been possible to be in some institutionalized education about entrepreneurship. So that's why Democratizing Innovation Institute is about. It's about democratizing innovation and entrepreneurship. And we try to do it in the best way we know, which is by making questions and enabling other people to do what they are said to do, what they would love to
Wei Jou Huang (1:13:26)
add on something. I it's really more like a change of the value of lots of people. It's like a shift of mindset. I mean like, it's just like you start to...
It's just like Tomás brings up, you start to realize your potential and through the realization, you start to spot some problem in the world and try to develop a solution in it. So I'm trying to imagine the future that everyone is having this kind of core value that mindset. So
I think it's more broader is just like the very brand new like like social, cultural or even cross cultural like the very similarity of
making change and solve some problems and develop the solution and try to improve the world. So that's what I'm trying to bring up is just like the ship of the mindset.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (1:14:42)
Tomás Mora Selva and Wei Jou Huang thank you so much for joining us tonight, this morning, and all of everything in between, here on What If Instead.
Tomás Mora Selva (1:14:56)
Thank you. Thank you very much for having us.
Wei Jou Huang (1:14:58)
Thanks for having me. Happy goes. Thank you.