Dr. Nico de Klerk discusses the power of positive energy and the messy nature of growth and discovery. . He describes his long walk across South Africa and the impact it had on the individuals.
Guest: Nico De Klerk, Founder, Streetbiz Foundation
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/nico-de-klerk-phd-884827147/
Website | https://www.nicodeklerk.co.za/
Hosts:
Alejandro Juárez Crawford
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford
Miriam Plavin-Masterman
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
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Episode Introduction
Nico’s project, Long Walk for the Entrepreneurial Mindset in South Africa, was awarded the Best Global Social Innovative Project for 2018 by Life Learning Academia on the recommendation of Edward de Bono, the ambassador.
The growth of the entrepreneurial mindset should be a top priority for South Africa to address all challenges at all levels of society. The process empowers the inner strength and capacity. Nico’s view is complemented by his position as a Master Trainer in Entrepreneurial Skills Development (University State of California).
Nico’s message gained attention on the international stage. In the last three years, he has performed in Canada, the USA, Italy, Tunisia, Russia, Slovenia, and Malta. Tune in now to listen Nico with Alejandro and Mim!
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Resources
StreetBiz (website): https://streetbiz.org/
StreetBiz (Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/StreetBizFoundation/
StreetBiz (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/@streetbizfoundation8854
"Be A Nelson Movement": https://linktr.ee/beanelsonmovement?utm_source=linktree_profile_share
Article: "Who Shapes the Future? Extending the Certificate in Sustainability & Social Enterprise to Individuals Building Community Ventures in South Africa": https://opensocietyuniversitynetwork.org/newsroom/who-shapes-the-future-osun-extends-academic-certificate-program-so-non-university-students-in-south-africa-can-build-their-own-social-ventures-2023-12-04
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Episode Sponsors
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For more podcast stories from What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman, visit: https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/alejandro-juarez-crawford and https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/miriam-plavin-masterman
The Two Way Street: Creating Mindset Change is the Way to Fight | A Conversation with Nico De Klerk | What If Instead? Podcast with Alejandro Juárez Crawford and Miriam Plavin-Masterman
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:00)
I'm Alejandro Juarez-Croffert, and my cohost is Mim Plavin-Master.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (00:05)
We're on a mission to make experiments of your own feel as normal as watching videos on your phone.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (00:12)
Welcome to What If Instead, the podcast. Now, one of the things that I love about you, Nico, and it's interesting, right, that you can feel love for people that you have never interacted with in person is that you are all about the hero's journey in everything I hear you say, but you're never the hero.
No offense, I'm not trying to say you're the villain or anything. But when I hear you speak, it's always about enabling other heroes on their journeys. So maybe we could start. You were telling me recently about 70 grassroots leaders coming together and the interactions and conversations you had with folks from around South Africa and the world. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Nico de Klerk (01:14)
Yeah, let's start with the most recent one, the 70 young leaders. And they were not from Cape Town and metropolitan areas. They were from the rural areas. And then to just hear the resources, the circumstances, the challenges. And then to apply this, what is it, approach to life, you know, re-imagine your world.
and what is standing in your way, the bricolage concept of entrepreneurship. Bricolage, you know, what is it that we have? And that's become an individual journey for each participant. And the amazing thing, what is built into this, is the whole Ubuntu philosophy of being together and taking care of each other.
So if there's one thing that I would like to emphasize just from the past weeks experienced, I would like to summarize it with systemic healing.
We don't have time and the resources for individual healing, but the need for healing is immense. And the more healed I am, the more I have to give. And then to see how it rolls out, I mean, one of the participants then, I've invited five participants of the recent walk to join me in this workshop and just to see.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (02:36)
Mm, mm.
Nico de Klerk (02:51)
how their level of performance went up, their confidence, their impact. Coming out of the three weeks ago walk, a six-day walk in nature with people from Europe, their first chance to interact on a personal level, get that exposure, worldviews, sharing, learning, overcome obstacles. I will
But to see what that is doing, liberating the mindset, it is fascinating. I mean, this is an addiction itself, fulfilling, it is giving a meaningful life. I can't complain about the sacrifices part. I can only find joy in what I experience.
level where I also had to learn to open up my own assumptions and world views and get rid of assumptions. You know it's like a learning experience and I became very much aware of the individual journey of each one. So I literally have many names and stories that I can share which is always inspirational when you learn about an individual but yeah I've got many of those available and inspiring.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (04:16)
So we would actually love to hear in a couple of minutes about some of those stories of liberated mindsets. Before we do that, I wondered if you could break down three things you mentioned just now. And the first is the Ubuntu concept of togetherness. The second is just for listeners, you may not be familiar with bricolage in an artistic sense, how you're using that term. And then thirdly, this
walk and this convening that you've described, if you could set the scene and tell us where that was, what was happening, who was there.
Nico de Klerk (04:57)
Sure. Achbrikulash, just simplify the concept. You know, it is to get that attitude in your mindset to investigate, analyze, see what you have and where's the need in a certain community, the most demanding need or service, and how can you be of service for the development or uplifting of that community of yours?
I always try to simplify any academic principles and so forth, but it is always good to have an academic foundation for what you're busy with. So, to get to the project of the walk, it was done in collaboration with a global peace organization with the name MasterPeace. One word, MasterPeace as in peace, no war.
It is built on peace initiatives in 45 countries participating. So I had an organizing supporting team from this global organization. The one was from the Netherlands, Portugal and Switzerland. So to work with them from South Africa.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (06:10)
Wait, before you go on, I'm interested in the organizing team, but bring us into the moment with you. Tell us, where did you first meet these folks? I don't want to cut short the discussion about how it came together, which is really important, but put us there if you could before we get into all of the back-
Nico de Klerk (06:37)
Yeah, long story short, when I did the long walk, you become aware of the immense challenge. And that was a research walk as well. So I gathered a lot of data, walking into these communities, getting repetitive behavior and outcomes, positive outcomes, learning experiences. And I challenged myself, but I need to put this
at a higher platform, I need to move to a higher level of action. This must not be a one-man show. So I can only network, bring people together. So I did a lot of research and from many, many hours of research, I connected with a masterpiece based in the Netherlands and I contacted them. And since then.
the StreetBuzz Foundation has the license of representing a masterpiece in South Africa. So then I also joined them on a boot camp in Tunisia where we were for instance in the Sahara desert, we were at the exact spot where the Arab Spring started, where Muhammad Bouazizi set himself a light at the end of 2010.
So you get confronted with the possibilities of social revolution and it can go good or bad. Now South Africa has a strive to go for the good, for peace and reconciliation, and I would like to build on that. But I also joined them for a walk in Nepal in the Malaya mountains. So then you get connected to a global network community, wonderful people, individuals.
and I then put it forth to them, I put it forward that I would like to bring this walk to South Africa, possibility and it was approved and it happened three years, three weeks ago we ended this walk in South Africa and I would like to make a statement about that. We got, we received, we greeted 15 participants from Europe. How wonderful it is to say after intense experience
We greeted 15 ambassadors for the BNL movement in South Africa. That's a great way to start to put it.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (09:10)
What is this Bia Nelson movement, Nico?
Nico de Klerk (09:11)
Um.
Everybody in the world will know that, you know, everybody in the world can associate and buy into the Nelson Mandela legacy and the outcome in South Africa. I'm not sure that we in South Africa realize the power of that legacy. So be a Nelson, be like Nelson. It made me to grow into the mindset, into the thinking of Nelson Mandela, how he handled situations.
So the more you learn and read about someone closely connected to his grandson, which is a close friend, you know, you learn, learn. And then you get into the mindset, okay, this is how he would have done it. The whole world can associate and buy into. This is the only statue at the entrance of United Nations. You know, it's like uniting people globally. It's globalization in a positive, good way where you also keep your own identity.
the principle of inclusivity. There's so many ways. So whenever I get confronted with a situation, I don't understand. I will just go into the mindset of Nelson Mandela and it's almost like hearing his voice. You know, young man, you should do it like this, all that, you know, and where, what are you doing now? It's like, he's really in my mind. He's really in my mind.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (10:22)
Mmm.
Nico de Klerk (10:41)
When I departed on that long walk, I stood next to his statue. It was early morning, still dark. The photo taken there was still dark and I heard his voice, you know, like, are you serious? Do you really want to do this? Can't wait to see what's going to happen. And I...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (11:01)
All we need is to change the world is the voice in all of our heads.
Nico de Klerk (11:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we have that.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (11:08)
Nelson Mandela is saying, are you serious? Do you really want to do this? I can think of lots of people around the world who could be totally transformed by just that question from Nelson Mandela in their brains.
Nico de Klerk (11:13)
No.
Well, I can tell you what immediately I responded actually loudly. I mean, if you guys think I'm crazy, it's fine. But it was really like building my courage or stupidity, you know, whatever you would like to see. But I immediately answered, yes, sir. And it will really help if you can put in a good word for me, you know. So, you know, I.
I spoke on a different platform about this and then one person said, how is that for channeling? You know, and I thought, well, I never thought of it like that. It was just like, yeah, many times along the walk, there's like many hours when you departed from one community hours before you get to the next. I went into conversations about what just happened, you know, and for some reason there's learning. I mean, why do we read?
We want to take it into our minds, we want to learn and expand our own mindset. So why not make it live?
Is this the end of the podcast? You want to end it? Yeah.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (12:27)
So can I ask you, how did, how? No, no,
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (12:31)
Hahaha!
Nico de Klerk (12:54)
Number one, you really have to open yourself for the unknown. How many times do we tell each other, you know, you have to be brave, you have to go into the unknown. We always, that is mindset expansion. You have to expose yourself to something new. The same happened when I went on a Camino de Santiago, you know, and you go with simplicity and you open yourself up and then things happen.
As on the Camino, the same happened during the walk in South Africa. People are presenting themselves or they will be, you know, they will, they will be called from wherever and they will come to you. So you don't have to do anything. Just go into the unknown and see, and you will never be disappointed.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (13:38)
Hmm.
Nico de Klerk (13:48)
Okay, yeah, sure. Sometimes things can go wrong. We all live in a funny strange world. But for some reason, it just opened up. And it's almost like when people meet you for the first time, what are you doing here? And then it becomes like a pattern. You must be introduced to this and so and so.
Let me take you there or the person will be called. It happened in squadra camps, townships, everywhere.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (14:24)
Nico, you talk about venturing into the unknown, and then you say, they'll come to you. And you describe, you say, well, some things may happen that you didn't expect, but the people you need will come to you. Can you tell us one or two stories about when you had to venture into a place you'd never been, maybe with people you didn't even know the people there, and who came into the situation when you did?
Nico de Klerk (14:55)
you mean like during the walk.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (14:59)
It could be during the walk or this principle you've described where you're, you know, so many of us really are afraid to go into the unknown. And for our listeners, right, folks who might themselves have the opportunity both to hear that voice that you've described saying, are you really going to do this? But also to have that willingness to go into the unknown.
Nico de Klerk (15:07)
Yeah, yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (15:29)
confident in the way you've described it, although you may face uncertainty, folks will come to meet you. Can you give us a couple of stories for people that might not feel as confident doing that as you?
Nico de Klerk (15:44)
Well, there's, it was 104 communities, because this was in the centenary year of Nelson Mandela, 2018. You know, it would have been 100 years. He died in 2013. So, yeah, there's...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (16:00)
You probably celebrated his 100 second birthday with him in your head, right, Nico?
Nico de Klerk (16:06)
Yeah, it's there, it's communication. I was ready for the walk and it just turned out to be the East 100 centenary. Yeah. And that's why I also decided to walk like zigzag. So I will end up with more than a hundred communities. In that, you also communicate the Mandala legacy.
of what it was all about. That's why I started Attistatue and ended Attistatue and built in a lot of things around it. If that is our best social asset in society, in South Africa especially, why not tap into it? And then it becomes like a seed, it grows in time. All right, that was my intention. But so I can literally give like 104 examples as well. Each community became
a repetition of this. But I will let me give you one example when I went into a community called Dipsluet close to Soweto. That was the third community I visited on the third day. You know, the one guy found the management team of the informal traders union in South Africa. And they were there in no time.
like seven of them. And they were questioning, so many questions, you know, of why, what, and so forth. And it then became such a wonderful relationship where after the walk, I was invited to do a five-day workshop with the management team, where there was so much systemic healing built into that, the Ubuntu caring, the...
different things, defining their own roles. And my dream is to get so many of those people on a course that I'm designed and presented at college. So the one thing is connected to the other. It's always like connecting this whole picture, but they really became so involved with the work. And if we talk about the informal trade section in South Africa, it is the biggest component or element in the economy.
but never recognized with no support. That's the most beautiful stories coming from that. Then you walk into the Tabumbeki Squatter Camp. Now a Squatter Camp is not a township. The Squatter Camp is one level below a township. That's where you literally have a structure built with anything that you can think of. And it's maybe like three by three meters or 10 feet by 10 feet or something like that, small.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (18:32)
Hmm.
Nico de Klerk (18:56)
whole family lives there. You go into that community and immediately they said we must take you to Julia, you know, Julia is that community. Then you learn about the structure, the organization within communities that will be usually seen as chaotic and just scenes of crime. It's actually the opposite. High standards, high values and they're trying to maintain law and order in their own way.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (19:20)
Yeah.
Nico de Klerk (19:26)
where even police and even people from the entrepreneurial development society in South Africa told me that they are actually too afraid to go into this area. But now if you go there, you only discover hospitality and kindness and accommodation and food. I was never asked, for instance, for money for accommodation. By the poorest of the poor,
I was never asked for money. And obviously I didn't have any money with me, but just as a matter of interest. But yeah, many, many stories.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (20:10)
So as I'm hearing you talk about this, it sounds like it's this two-way street of the people you meet in the township influencing you, you influencing them to kind of create these journeys of discovery. How did you decide, okay, creating these journeys of discovery or creating mindset changes is going to be the way to fight poverty and inequality?
and sort of structural unemployment issues in South Africa. Like, what was that epiphany like? Say, okay, this is going to be the past.
Nico de Klerk (20:48)
I can't remember if I told you about it, but please, if I already did with the previous recording, just stop me. But I became aware of the immense potential, especially among the youth, but then also the unemployed in South Africa. We are faced with challenges, second to none, and then you become aware of the potential.
Now that's like an insight, it's an awareness. I have to do something about it. I can't just look at it now that I'm aware of it. And it's going nowhere for various reasons I can elaborate on. But I was made aware of that by becoming a volunteer with developing entrepreneurship skills. But I ended up as a national coordinator.
for a global organization. Voluntary, like a national quarter. And then I had a chance to facilitate the provincial competitions. You go with us, different teams through their drills. We are talking about teenagers. And then I ended up at the world championships. And when it was announced, South Africa got the fourth place that year.
which is by the way the best, this was way back 2014, you know, it's an awareness, I couldn't sleep that night. This was in Moscow in Russia. And having those teenagers in a place like that, in a hotel, they've never been in a hotel, they've never been in Dubai airport and et cetera, on a aeroplane. But nevertheless, when addressing the mindset that people can perform
detached from background, from circumstances, they can really show their true value. And this is what the B.O. Nelson movement is all about, enabling people to not only individually perform at a higher level, but also to unleash this energy. So currently, it's an amazing thing to see how individuals are now inspiring other individuals. The whole concept.
you know, of growth network. It's way beyond my or any other individuals reach. It's human resilience at its best. It's a if we know this potential, why will you only stay focused on the negative or the obstacles? The only reason to focus on that is how to remove it. But that's a certain approach in your mindset, you know, I need to look at it, but
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (23:37)
And yet it's...
Nico de Klerk (23:40)
get it out of the way, not to get stuck. The same with healing.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (23:47)
It's so different, Nico, what you're-
Nico de Klerk (23:48)
on the wall.
on the walk just now, one young guy was very transparent about it to inform us that he arrived there as a broken man.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (23:55)
Nåra!
Nico de Klerk (24:07)
And if I have permission to share this story, what but when?
When you are broken, I'm talking about serious trauma that happened to him.
There was a gang rape involved. There was a physical assault involved. There was...
And the physical result actually took the lid off all the other trauma.
That's besides what happened way back with our whole apartheid system. This is just individual stories. And when you arrive at a walk with people and you announce to them, you share with them, I actually withdrew from society the last couple of months. I was considering suicide just at the edge. And then six days later...
This same person can totally turn around the energy of the group when they were confronted by racism and racist comment from the outside. And we had to discuss this in all transparency. And this person can stand up and say, this is who we are. This is how we can move forward. We're not going to let ourselves. And I'm talking now to you as a huge man. And I want to thank all of you. You know.
What do you do with situations like that? This is possible. The turnaround is possible. Why not focus on that? Reimagine the world as you've said right at the beginning.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (25:59)
Nico, what you're describing is so different from the narrative that we read in the news every single day. It's different in how one confronts a hurt. You talk about being confronted with a racist comment and this person who'd been through the worst things that we go through due to racist structures.
being able to be a source of energy, coming back from that point of despair that you described to help other people move forward. That's so different from the story that we hear. You know, we often think about sort of abuse and trauma being handed down, as we know they are, but you're describing also the possibility of resilience causing ripple effects. And that is such a different story from the one of
more and more hurt and more and more retaliation that is what we hear about every day. I wish, Nico, that every single person in the United States where I live could hear your account when you talk about the fear of going into a community. You said even the police officers were afraid of crime, but what you found when you went
into the community was hospitality, kindness, accommodation, and food, and that folks who had very little didn't ask you for money. This is something that again is so different from the story we hear every day, which is a story of fear of communities. And in a very small way, Nico, I sort of relate to that feeling.
The neighborhood that I grew up in was in no way as poor as the ones you're describing. It's not even comparable. Nevertheless, I remember friends that I went to school with crossing into our neighborhood and saying, I'm uncomfortable. I'm afraid here. And I'll never forget just the thinking, wait a minute, we're always taking care of people here. We don't have anything and we take care of people.
Nico de Klerk (28:16)
Yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (28:26)
The folk singer Woody Guthrie in his autobiography talked about riding the freight trains in the U.S. in the middle of the 20th century and how if he walked into a community and not having eaten in several days, you had to go to the poorest part of town because that's the place where someone would give you food.
Nico de Klerk (28:39)
Hmm.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (28:49)
I wish everyone could hear these stories you're talking about.
Nico de Klerk (28:50)
Uh.
Yeah, I'm expecting a visiting group from the United States of America in two weeks' time.
And what a privilege. I'm looking forward, as you all know, I can, I have a real appreciation for the American people and from what I've learned about Americans and I can really go on and on about it, really validating what I've experienced with Americans. So very much looking forward to their, you know, reaction,
Mim Plvin-Masterman (29:25)
Thanks for watching!
Nico de Klerk (29:33)
after exposure.
I don't have to say this but let me state it, special people.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (29:47)
Honestly, Nico, it's a nice time to hear about our better angels, to use the phrase that Abraham Lincoln used, because it's easy when reading the news today not to feel too great about the way that we're conducting ourselves right now. So the fact that you appreciate some of what's come out of that.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (29:52)
Ha ha ha!
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (30:14)
You know, what's America except a lot of people from different places coming together? it's what you're describing and on a journey and I am Will admit Hoping wishing for reasons for hope that journey could be a cycle of healing rather than a cycle of Division
Nico de Klerk (30:37)
Yeah, let me make a statement, Alexandro. We've got so much to share with each other, specifically, you know, with our history about slavery and, you know, the social justice focus in South Africa and in the two countries, I really feel have a strong message and so much to learn and to share with each other. Although South Africa is a much smaller partner, but...
dealing with the same issues. So if I'm talking about that, if you don't mind, you know, we've been confronted with a transparent, open, healing conversation about racism, and then the one thing leads to the other. But it should be no surprise that is a very sensitive conversation when you have to not ignore it, avoid it, but address it.
with transparency, openness, honesty, with pain.
And then you have Europeans part of the conversation with different worldviews from different countries. It speaks for itself. This was highly, highly intense, the walk. You know, this was not during the walk. This is when we make like a circle and in evenings and take a break. And you have to address where we have to see and...
look at you know those bells with which the slaves were called that is still in place in South Africa most of them at churches. Now if I ask a South African have to explain this feature to people from abroad you look at it from a different angle as is even a South African and then you have the different cultures
But when everybody in dialogue can share their views with respect to each other, we always talk about a safe space. And usually you learn that this was not such a safe space as I thought, when you really express yourself. But then why can't we reimagine the world? You know, why can't we have a safe space to really address these issues? And I'm afraid that society...
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (32:55)
Mm.
Mm.
Nico de Klerk (33:06)
Let me speak for the South African society. Just go to the surface, and we do sometimes just things that will make us feel good. And we need to go work through the pain. When there's an infection, you have to open up the infection in order to get healing. Ma'am, I would like to hear your response on this.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (33:29)
So one observation and then a follow-up question. So as I'm hearing you talk about this, there's such a through line of empathy. There's such a through line of kindness coming through all of what you're doing about even going on a physically taxing journey, an emotionally taxing journey with the goal of being transformed. It just sounds like there's this way that you're trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes and say, okay, they're going to be uncomfortable.
How do I help them in this space of getting comfortable, being uncomfortable and growing from it? So there's, it just, it feels very philosophical, but also, I mean, we've talked about this with some of our other guests too, this idea of kind of combining empathy with something very challenging. And that's a growth process for people. So we talked about this when we talked with Burmette.
on another episode about she really challenged people, but yet there's this empathy of like, you're gonna grow from this, you're going to be better from this. So one of my questions is, how has your approach to that transformation, that journey changed as you've gotten to learn more about all the people who want to be part of it, right? You have multicultural complexities and challenges, you have racial challenges. How is your approach to...
challenging people and yet providing this empathetic support grown as you've been involved in this world.
Nico de Klerk (35:00)
You probably know about the peace pilgrim in America.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (35:06)
little bit.
Nico de Klerk (35:08)
So this woman walked much further than I did. That was about 60 years ago, 70 years ago. She walked all over America, she was invited to speak, and there's still an organization. So I bow to the Peace Pilgrim in America so many years ago.
But I also learned a lot from her and from the society, as I did from the Kamino pilgrims. But it is a journey, a journey of awakening. So where I'm currently, to be quite honest, I have a challenge that feels like even bigger. I have to level up in terms of my communication skills with organizations, so many people interested.
I've got a contact list so long. I need to be more effective because I just can't stay up with social media and all the time on that. I actually gave up. But four of the Nelsons, four have now presented themselves with backgrounds that I wasn't even aware of and they taking over this responsibility of sharing whatever. I don't even get there anymore.
You can look at anything that's behind at the moment, but they are now very eager. They would like to take responsibility for that. Four of the guys who walked with is one female and three males. I'm looking forward to see what they're going to do. So my communication skills, I must go to a different level where I communicate more effectively with all the tools available.
The second one is funding. It's always funding when you work with a non-profit. Bring me one non-profit, not with a funding challenge. And funding has become a territory for an expert. You need expertise. I need, literally, to appoint someone to take care of all the funding. I've given up on that as well. I've had so many applications done. I know what it takes. And yes, I've succeeded. But at a...
not at the highest level. I need to go to the highest level in terms of funding, communication and you know how to reimagine the world again you know with that. That is right now personally my challenge. There's something that comes to mind. If I lift my eyes where I'm sitting in Blowback Strand in Cape Town, I'm looking at Robben Island. It's right in front of me.
I've been there this week with European visitors to accompany them. And we went obviously to the prison cell of a Nelson Mandela and a Robert Sabukwe.
and others who did not get, shall I say, the recognition that they deserve to really buy freedom for all South Africans, including me, any every white person in South Africa as well.
So how inspiring can it be to see what they were willing to sacrifice? And we have to do it now again with what we are challenged now with in South Africa because everybody realizes that we are on the wrong road, wrong path, we are not getting to the issues. But it doesn't take away that my focus definitely will be on the good.
I don't spend too much time, but just taking note of our challenges in terms of the analyzing process, where to focus. So therefore, just to summarize this, there's also a focus, a seven-point focus. And I need funding for that, so seven points in terms of the strategy for the BNLZN movement, because in all this chaos, you must strive towards a strategy, if I'm right, just to align energy, you know.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (39:44)
Nico, as you describe both the power of the work you're doing and the need for it, as I listen, it occurs to me that to ask, could the same principle that applied when you walked into a township and folks came to you?
collaborate? Could that apply to the need to bring this work you're doing to a large scale? Because as I listen every person you talk about who is transformed and finds their own power to create, to reimagine and to create a different world.
that there must be a thousand, ten thousand, a hundred thousand, a million people just like them. So I am tempted to ask, and I don't have a pat answer here, but is there some way that if we get the power of what you all are doing out, that partners who want to be a part of that could come just as folks come within a township.
Nico de Klerk (41:12)
Yeah. Yes.
Again, if you really want the honesty, I had to work through many, many proposals, you know, and refine it, and again refine and update it. The wording, you get input from everybody that's willing to participate, give you feedback. It takes time. The walk, it just doesn't happen.
like deciding it today and the next day or the next week. It's I had to postpone actually my date of departure. This walk that just happened with the European people, one American, I also had to postpone. And this is a challenge for me, my own personality, you know, I want things to happen now. But I mean, we are all impatient. We would like things to happen. So that self-discipline to know that you're going through a process.
So I believe in the principle. All I'm saying is I need to upscale my own approach, methodology, and whatever to become more and more effective, but it's going to happen at some stage. Now I can openly say this course, the registered design at the college where I'm the School of Social Innovation, $600 to $50 because it's 600 euro.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (42:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nico de Klerk (42:46)
And you sponsor one student from a community, nominated by that community, to participate in this online course, but then also hybrid, also coming in person for a week. I think that's the most effective strategy. There must be also a period of in-person contact. You know, so getting to that, it really took time, you know, just to get this course registered.
at the college because this is outside the academic sphere. If you want to address grassroots leadership, you're not going to come with them with a university course, but you give them access to higher education, but now you first have to get the education institution to broaden their boundaries, you know, to expand boundaries. So many things. Patience. It's testing.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (43:41)
Can we actually touch on that point for a second, Nico, where last fall, I know that you connected folks who weren't in a formal educational context to a global experience that was university-based. And I know that you had quoted Bafana Binda, one of the participants, saying that
Nico de Klerk (43:54)
Thanks for watching.
Yeah.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (44:10)
broadened, as she said, my perspective as I interacted with people from diverse cultures, challenging my own cultural assumptions. And when you told me that, it struck me that most of the time, our universities aren't flexible enough to lead to that interaction. But through that interaction, it wasn't just what Bafana gained. It was what all the
undergraduates and masters students gained through their interaction with the Nelson. So can you speak a little bit to your own experience doing something so unusual to bring a community based program of entrepreneurship together with a university based one?
Nico de Klerk (45:04)
It's like walking into a township. It is easier than we think or anticipate. But let me be very honest. It is difficult to bring that message across to academics. As it is difficult to bring the message to the churches
that's very much involved, they all speak the language, not realizing, not realizing that their approach is actually supporting the old mindset.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (45:43)
when you speak about this, the theme that comes out of everything you've said is a theme of listening to others and their perspectives from your wonderful statement that
you imagining Nelson Mandela speaking to you as if it were really happening is akin to reading, right? Where I love to read because I get to be in some kind of dialogue with someone who may not even be living, right? And then you're in that dialogue. And then on the walks and in the groups, folks who wouldn't be talking to each other, learning mutually from each other. What you're saying to me, if I've spoken clearly, is that
we need to turn around and start listening. And it occurs to me that in our existing institutions, our universities, our churches, our government institutions, our corporate institutions, it's only if we start to listen to the people we stopped listening to, not just some management consultant, not just the people with the money, but listening to the people with the knowledge you're describing that we will find a way forward. And I don't think we have
other lifetimes. I think we need to find that way forward now.
Mim Plvin-Masterman (47:04)
And as we talked a little bit about sort of intertwining nature in how we think about all of this, I keep thinking of this image of a rock in a lake with just the ripples going wider and wider and wider. And we don't exactly know where they're going, right? But they just keep building on themselves and there's joy in the journey. So, yeah, thank you for.
for joining us today. This was amazing.
Alejandro Juárez Crawford (47:33)
Nico, thank you so much.